What if I wanted to....?

You are telling me that you meant to hit a moose in the neck/spine @ 1175 yards as the "preferred shot " because of the caliber you were shooting??? AM I reading this correctly??

Yes as I believe that with the broadside shot that was presented to shoot chest cavity possibly would not have resulted in a clean kill, in my experience broken necks are pretty instant deaths, necks have far less meat and protective bone to encounter as well.
Where else would you suggest being better shot placement at that distance?

Personally I would have taken the higher percentage shot at that distance and aimed for the 2'x2'+ kill zone (the chest) that the broadside moose was presenting. At that distance a 10mph wind will push your 200 grain wildcat at least 60"-70". Shooting at 1000+ yards that would be accurate enough to purposefully hit such a low percentage target as the spine is one thing at the range, but to attempt a kill with a the neck/spine at this distance in the field is certainly not a reccomended shot. Happy to hear it worked out for you.
 
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www.longrangehunting.com will answer all of your questions. I have several articles in my sig line that should also help you on your quest.

LR hunting is a very technical part of hunting that involves both rifle tech and shooting skills. After spending ALOT of money on rifles and support gear THEN being in locations to engage at long range, my longest shot has been 355yds. Longer just didn't present itself.

Please do your research on the gear needed to make this all happen. I have more invested in my support gear and optics then most will spend on 3 rifles. This is not a cheap endeavor if done 'properly'.

My rifle didn't cost that much.

Do get a small bore/rimfire and practise, practise, practise. You need to be so confident at hitting that it becomes boring. The excitement is in finding and engaging game. The shooting part should be 'child's play'.

I figure I shot a thousand rds in practise for every rd I fired at game. Get's pricey.

If shooting overrides the engagement, you are not confident in the gear. your ability, and/or distance and conditions. Don't shoot, get closer.

A LR hunter is going to pass up ALOT of shots simply because there is too much room for error.

Good luck with your quest and let me know if I can be of further help.

Jerry
 
Head shooting sparrows @ 600+ yards and neck shooting moose @ 1100+ yards! Mighty impressive stuff I would say. You must be good or damned lucky to have confirmed kills at those ranges.
 
Longdraw I do not advocate taking shots like this unless the guy running the trigger is truly capable, has the equipment capable to do the job AND the shot conditions are 100% perfect. If the wind had been an issue I can assure you the shot would NOT have been taken. Also unlike the videos , I am extremely cognizant of where my bullet will end up and if there are any roads, people or other potential dangers existing prior to shooting.
Just to clarify further.
I shoot many thousands of rounds every year in all kinds of conditions at ranges from 100 to over 2000 yards throughout the entire year. With the rifle I used in the moose kill, I do not consider this hunting, more "shooting where an animal ends up in the freezer", it is a custom 17 lb F class type rig that I can consistently keep 3 shots inside 4" at 1000 yards. At that time it had a 6.5x20x50 Mk4 scope on it, Canjar single set trigger, USO ACD , but have upgraded to a NF scope now. I have my loads worked to an under 7 FPS maximum variation in a 10 shot string over the chonograph. Certainly NOT you average hunting rifle.
After over 40 years of extreme long range shooting am pretty good at doping the wind, but still hunt with a Kestrel, a PDA and LRF, so try to take as many variables out of the equation as humanly possible.

The concern with a chest shot was the high probability of hitting a rib, moose here have 1/4 or thicker hides and are quite tough to penetrate, the hide can act like a trampoline and possibly defeat penetration, especially over the ribs. To have any possibility of the bullet not doing its job has to be ruled out. Hence the neck shot, thinner skin, no ribs to get in the way, even if the spine was missed plenty of damage to the jugular,throat etc, not to mention the hydrostatic shock transfer to the brain.

Again I stress, I do not advocate taking shots like this unless everything is in the shooters favor, lifelong skill, extremely precise equipment and most importantly knowing your limitations.

I think in an earlier post I mentioned the "ethics" debate. Long range hunters seem to be critizied far more about possible wounded animals than weekend warrior type hunters or bow hunters. In my 40 plus years of hunting have come across plenty of game that were lost victims of both.
Ethics are what you decide they are on a personal level.
I hope this helps you understand , me and my decisions.
 
www.longrangehunting.com will answer all of your questions. I have several articles in my sig line that should also help you on your quest.

LR hunting is a very technical part of hunting that involves both rifle tech and shooting skills. After spending ALOT of money on rifles and support gear THEN being in locations to engage at long range, my longest shot has been 355yds. Longer just didn't present itself.

Please do your research on the gear needed to make this all happen. I have more invested in my support gear and optics then most will spend on 3 rifles. This is not a cheap endeavor if done 'properly'.

My rifle didn't cost that much.

Do get a small bore/rimfire and practise, practise, practise. You need to be so confident at hitting that it becomes boring. The excitement is in finding and engaging game. The shooting part should be 'child's play'.

I figure I shot a thousand rds in practise for every rd I fired at game. Get's pricey.

If shooting overrides the engagement, you are not confident in the gear. your ability, and/or distance and conditions. Don't shoot, get closer.

A LR hunter is going to pass up ALOT of shots simply because there is too much room for error.

Good luck with your quest and let me know if I can be of further help.

Jerry



Jerry I could not have said it better.
 
Head shooting sparrows @ 600+ yards and neck shooting moose @ 1100+ yards! Mighty impressive stuff I would say. You must be good or damned lucky to have confirmed kills at those ranges.

Not wanting to sound arrogant, and please do not take it that way.
I do not believe in luck, I do however believe in practice makes perfect.
Like any skill the more you hone it, the more natural and easier it becomes. Some of us are blessed in having a knack for something, Tiger Woods comes to mind, started young, practices daily, wins frequently.
I started shooting very young, got the addiction REAL BAD, so shoot ALOT at every opportunity I get.
I have been fortunate in having guys with me on many occasions who can attest to the shots taken, as well as those that I prefer to not talk about;)
 
Longdraw I do not advocate taking shots like this unless the guy running the trigger is truly capable, has the equipment capable to do the job AND the shot conditions are 100% perfect. If the wind had been an issue I can assure you the shot would NOT have been taken. Also unlike the videos , I am extremely cognizant of where my bullet will end up and if there are any roads, people or other potential dangers existing prior to shooting.
Just to clarify further.
I shoot many thousands of rounds every year in all kinds of conditions at ranges from 100 to over 2000 yards throughout the entire year. With the rifle I used in the moose kill, I do not consider this hunting, more "shooting where an animal ends up in the freezer", it is a custom 17 lb F class type rig that I can consistently keep 3 shots inside 4" at 1000 yards. At that time it had a 6.5x20x50 Mk4 scope on it, Canjar single set trigger, USO ACD , but have upgraded to a NF scope now. I have my loads worked to an under 7 FPS maximum variation in a 10 shot string over the chonograph. Certainly NOT you average hunting rifle.
After over 40 years of extreme long range shooting am pretty good at doping the wind, but still hunt with a Kestrel, a PDA and LRF, so try to take as many variables out of the equation as humanly possible.

The concern with a chest shot was the high probability of hitting a rib, moose here have 1/4 or thicker hides and are quite tough to penetrate, the hide can act like a trampoline and possibly defeat penetration, especially over the ribs. To have any possibility of the bullet not doing its job has to be ruled out. Hence the neck shot, thinner skin, no ribs to get in the way, even if the spine was missed plenty of damage to the jugular,throat etc, not to mention the hydrostatic shock transfer to the brain.

Again I stress, I do not advocate taking shots like this unless everything is in the shooters favor, lifelong skill, extremely precise equipment and most importantly knowing your limitations.

I think in an earlier post I mentioned the "ethics" debate. Long range hunters seem to be critizied far more about possible wounded animals than weekend warrior type hunters or bow hunters. In my 40 plus years of hunting have come across plenty of game that were lost victims of both.
Ethics are what you decide they are on a personal level.
I hope this helps you understand , me and my decisions.

Please don't take my questioning as anti what some practice with LR hunting, as I own 2 LR rigs and I regularly shoot to 1k as well. Albiet I am sure I don't have trigger time that you have, but your time behind the iron does not change the fundimentals of LR hunting. Some of the info you have in your post is simply way off base. I don't know how many moose you have skinned but on the dozen or so moose I have skinned the hide on the neck is at least 3 times thicker than the hide over the ribs- especially up along the spine.
As far as a 200 grain bullet "trampolining" off of a standing broadside moose hide/rib? caaamon?? If a bullet is going to bounce off of a rib it would surely not penetrate the neck area either. Moose have evolved to have the thickest hide on their bodies to be on the head-neck area because they beat the tar out of eack other during the rut- this is fact.
At 1200 yards your bullet is still doing 1200-1300 fps and I would say that this "trampolining" you refer to is an impossibility. Take a shot at a 2'x2'+ chest kill zone, where you should always aim, or a 4" high spine??? I don't care if the shot is 20 yards or 1500 yards there is no reason to take such a low percentage shot- This has nothing to do with LR hunting.

Again, not against the 1175 yard moose kill, but the claim that you aimed for the 4" high spine as you wanted a "clean Kill" because of the equipment you were using is perplexing to say the least?

You got real lucky hitting a moose in the neck on purpose and dropping it at 1175 yards, it was a lotto shot.....
 
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The concern with a chest shot was the high probability of hitting a rib, moose here have 1/4 or thicker hides and are quite tough to penetrate, the hide can act like a trampoline and possibly defeat penetration, especially over the ribs.

Have you tried the 240gr MK, 208gr Amax or Berger?

I have almost shot through a 1/2" thick mild steel SWINGING gong with my 300RUM and 240gr MKs at 1000m.

Skin and ribs are most certainly not going to stop this slug from busting through.

Nice shot by the way....

Jerry
 
Please don't take my questioning as anti what some practice with LR hunting, as I own 2 LR rigs and I regularly shoot to 1k as well. Albiet I am sure I don't have trigger time that you have, but your time behind the iron does not change the fundimentals of LR hunting. Some of the info you have in your post is simply way off base. I don't know how many moose you have skinned but on the dozen or so moose I have skinned the hide on the neck is at least 3 times thicker than the hide over the ribs.
As far as a 200 grain bullet "trampolining" off of a standing broadside moose hide/rib? caaamon?? If a bullet is going to bounce off of a rib it would surely not penetrate the neck area either. Moose have evolved to have the thickest hide on their bodies to be on the head-neck area because they beat the tar out of eack other during the rut- this is fact.
At 1200 yards your bullet is still doing 1200-1300 fps and I would say that this "trampolining" you refer to is an impossibility. Take a shot at a 2'x2'+ kill zone, where you should always aim, or a 3" high spine??? I don't care if the shot is 20 yards or 1500 yards there is no reason to take such a low percentage shot- This has nothing to do with LR hunting.

Again, not against the 1175 yard moose kill, but the claim that you aimed for the 4" high spine as you wanted a "clean Kill" because of the equipment you were using is perplexing to say the least?

You got real lucky hitting a moose in the neck on purpose and dropping it at 1175 yards, it was a lotto shot.....


No offense taken, we all have our opinions and experiences.
To date I am responsible for the demise of over 30 moose. I have experienced bullets coming literally apart on a rib, just under the skin on 2 occasions. I do not use Sierra Gamekings now for that reason, although I know many hunters use them with success, I am just not 1 of them. I have also had bullets pencil through so do not shoot Barnes X bullets for this reason, yet many hunters have success with them to.
I have seen the "trampoline" effect on animals and know it is a "possibility" 1 I would prefer to negate. I am not claiming the bullets bounce off by any means, but their effectiveness is greatly reduced. I am not sure if "trampoline" is the correct term but what I am trying to get across is that the hide allows the bullet to create an imprint (or back face deformation) into the body cavity, much like what a trampoline looks like when someone jumps down on 1, this effect can greatly impact on how a bullet reacts and can be redirected. At over 1000 yards the bullets arc is in a fairly steep decline, especially given that the shot was taken from an elevated postion.
I have shot an awful pile of game includeing some threatening sparrows in the neck or head over the years and can say with 100% conviction nothing walks away from either shot.

Hopefully no-one is offended by these photos.

Africa153-1.jpg


IMG_2530.jpg


IMG_2529.jpg
 
Aah yes, those pictures. Bet you never thought that a 3.5-10x would be enough scope for you, didja?

Did they bleach the lion skull for you?

Here kitty, kitty, kitty...
 
Have you tried the 240gr MK, 208gr Amax or Berger?

I have almost shot through a 1/2" thick mild steel SWINGING gong with my 300RUM and 240gr MKs at 1000m.

Skin and ribs are most certainly not going to stop this slug from busting through.

Nice shot by the way....

Jerry

I could not get the 240s to work well in this particular rifle, the 208s and the Bergers work well in some of my other 300s, having 5 or 600 live rounds for this particular rifle still and knowing it has several thousand rounds down the pipe, I am hesitant to invest the time developing another load, this 1 will be rebarreled as soon as I have exhausted the current ammo supply I have for it.
The new barrel will be throated for the Amaxs or the Bergers as I had a reamer made specifically for use with those bullets.
 
Aah yes, those pictures. Bet you never thought that a 3.5-10x would be enough scope for you, didja?

Did they bleach the lion skull for you?

Here kitty, kitty, kitty...

Damn glad I took it!! Africa accounts for 90% of my close range rifle shooting.
If I had left the 6.5x20 on that rifle on that day, I think the outcome would have been quite different.
Yes they bleached the jigsaw puzzle and I have it almost in 1 piece, a bit more epoxy and she will be good as old.:eek:
 
a question for ATR: what bullet would you recommend for moose hunting?? everybody seems to have an opion, but when questioned why don't seem to have too much experience to back it up. the big ones that seem to come up are Barnes,Nos. Partition, Game King etc. talking about 300 or 338 win mag. your opions would be valued!
 
Please don't take my questioning as anti what some practice with LR hunting, as I own 2 LR rigs and I regularly shoot to 1k as well. Albiet I am sure I don't have trigger time that you have, but your time behind the iron does not change the fundimentals of LR hunting. Some of the info you have in your post is simply way off base. I don't know how many moose you have skinned but on the dozen or so moose I have skinned the hide on the neck is at least 3 times thicker than the hide over the ribs- especially up along the spine.
As far as a 200 grain bullet "trampolining" off of a standing broadside moose hide/rib? caaamon?? If a bullet is going to bounce off of a rib it would surely not penetrate the neck area either. Moose have evolved to have the thickest hide on their bodies to be on the head-neck area because they beat the tar out of eack other during the rut- this is fact.
At 1200 yards your bullet is still doing 1200-1300 fps and I would say that this "trampolining" you refer to is an impossibility. Take a shot at a 2'x2'+ chest kill zone, where you should always aim, or a 4" high spine??? I don't care if the shot is 20 yards or 1500 yards there is no reason to take such a low percentage shot- This has nothing to do with LR hunting.

Again, not against the 1175 yard moose kill, but the claim that you aimed for the 4" high spine as you wanted a "clean Kill" because of the equipment you were using is perplexing to say the least?

You got real lucky hitting a moose in the neck on purpose and dropping it at 1175 yards, it was a lotto shot.....

I would never take a neck shot(not intentionally) bc I would have to saw the hole in the hide when I mount the head and I hate sawing animal hide.
 
No offense taken, we all have our opinions and experiences.
To date I am responsible for the demise of over 30 moose. I have experienced bullets coming literally apart on a rib, just under the skin on 2 occasions. I do not use Sierra Gamekings now for that reason, although I know many hunters use them with success, I am just not 1 of them. I have also had bullets pencil through so do not shoot Barnes X bullets for this reason, yet many hunters have success with them to.
I have seen the "trampoline" effect on animals and know it is a "possibility" 1 I would prefer to negate. I am not claiming the bullets bounce off by any means, but their effectiveness is greatly reduced. I am not sure if "trampoline" is the correct term but what I am trying to get across is that the hide allows the bullet to create an imprint (or back face deformation) into the body cavity, much like what a trampoline looks like when someone jumps down on 1, this effect can greatly impact on how a bullet reacts and can be redirected. At over 1000 yards the bullets arc is in a fairly steep decline, especially given that the shot was taken from an elevated postion.
I have shot an awful pile of game includeing some threatening sparrows in the neck or head over the years and can say with 100% conviction nothing walks away from either shot.

Hopefully no-one is offended by these photos.

Africa153-1.jpg


IMG_2530.jpg


IMG_2529.jpg

Wow! did you have the lion full body mounted?
How heavy was that thing weight?
 
a question for ATR: what bullet would you recommend for moose hunting?? everybody seems to have an opion, but when questioned why don't seem to have too much experience to back it up. the big ones that seem to come up are Barnes,Nos. Partition, Game King etc. talking about 300 or 338 win mag. your opions would be valued!

I have had great success at closer range (under 800 yards)with Partitions in both calibers you mention, they were dependable everytime in my experience. I have a small collection of recovered Partitions and they do exactly what the maker claims as far as expansion and retention go. Unfortunately they do not have a high BC and at extreme long range do not perform dependably and are not what I consider to be accurate enough for real long range work, which is no surprise, they were not designed to be ubber accurate.
I have had no good experiences with Gamekings on wildlife, ok for targets, but Matchkings are better yet for targets. Both times I used them they failed, as in blew up on impact. Maybe I am driving them too fast I don't know, but I have not had good success with them.
The Hornady accubonds work well but I found they tend to take on a mind of their own after 800 yards so do not consider them accurate enough for real long range. Under 800 yards they work effectively both in expansion and retention of weight.
The 208 Amaxs although specifically NOT recommended for hunting by the maker, I have seen in action and they worked VERY well on game, but at 700 yards plus. None recovered yet, but eveything shot went down NOW!!

I believe Barnes makes a decent bullet but I will never shoot another 1, after the pencilling episode I called Barnes to see if they had any suggestion as to what I may be doing wrong, got some snotty ##### on the phone who basically told me I was an idiot, so won't give them my $$, this is just something personal.

I had Wildcat bullets make up a large batch of the 200 gr bonded bullets I shoot out of my old 300, as well as some 338 cl 325 gr bonded bullets. I am sad that they are no longer available, they were spectacular.

Switching over to my 338 lapua Improved, I shoot 300 gr Matchkings. I would not want to use them at close range but beyond 500 yards they work great.
A herd of donkeys, 1 Impala and a Blesbuck all proved that last year in Africa.

Choosing the right bullet is complicated by distance, some bullets are thin jacketed and if driven at high speed can come apart on impact at closer ranges, bonded 1s at closer range will expand well but may fail to expand at distance. ULDs in thick bush are useless.

I think Berger is on the right track as they are building basicaly a match bullet designed for hunting. I have not used any on game yet, but everyone I know who has used them claims great success.

The Lapua Scenars are also supposed to be pretty good, I guess this fall we will see. I got some 300 grainers from them to try, so I will.

During the BSE crisis when cows were a dime a dozen I had the chance to test several bullets at close and far, on live animals, then necropsy them before they headed for the dog food plant. My conclusions are that there is no magic bullet for all distances, so selecting the bullet closest to what your needs are is about all you can do.
Not sure how much help I am.
 
Mightyhunter
I had her turned into a rug, which now takes up ALL of my living room wall.
They don't look as big until skinned and all stretched out rug style.

The lioness weighed 320 lbs on the hoof or paw so to speak, pretty decent size for a female and way too much attitude.

The sparrow about 3 ozs, 1 trophy I did not have mounted.
 
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