Well, that's actually interesting. WW2 introduced such a wide variety of arms and equipment, from small arms to giant tanks and artillery, it's a pretty fascinating topic. The Germans in particular seemed obsessed with filling every gap with specialized equipment and chasing wonder weapons.
What is a Cooper scout / Gunsite Ranch rifle?
- Thread starter Big Bad
- Start date
Well, that's actually interesting. WW2 introduced such a wide variety of arms and equipment, from small arms to giant tanks and artillery, it's a pretty fascinating topic. The Germans in particular seemed obsessed with filling every gap with specialized equipment and chasing wonder weapons.
This debate is so stupid. Call whatever you want a "scout" rifle. Call it a "true scout" rifle who gives a ####.
I'd be more interested if anyone who has such strong opinions of what makes a "true scout" rifle could actually do some "scout" shooting. Sling it on your back, run 40km with a couple thousand meters of gain, in a respectable time, and then shoot a course of fire from 20-400m.
I'd be more interested if anyone who has such strong opinions of what makes a "true scout" rifle could actually do some "scout" shooting. Sling it on your back, run 40km with a couple thousand meters of gain, in a respectable time, and then shoot a course of fire from 20-400m.
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That Youtube video directed me to Ian from Forgotten Weapons review of Richard Mann's Scout Rifle book. Also interesting. "How serious are Coopers rules anyway?" is a great comment from Ian. 
Some comments from the viewers of the video:
The only thing that comes to mind with the mid mounted scope is that it seems like Cooper wanted all the benefits of a modern red dot and magnifier combo but the technology wasn't there at the time.
I've read the book. A handy bolt rifle is an amazing, do most things decently, tool. That's why people can't leave the scout rifle concept alone. Optics have come a helluva long ways since Cooper's day. So, what I cannot understand is why almost nobody can wrap their brain around the idea of building a handy bolt rifle with updated modern concepts. For instance a 16-18" barreled 6.5cm/308 with say a 1-6, 1-8, or 1-10 scope on it. Lucky Gunner did a great series on practical rifles. That is the only time I've heard someone say it like it is: " The scout rifle concept is great, so throw out the parts that don't make modern sense, and drive on." I don't understand why that's so difficult.
I think it's one of those instances where the concept had a specific time and place, and they no longer exist, and thus the concept has been outdated. Especially when you factor in the development of firearms in the last 50 years, optics in particular.The whole concept only exists in a hunting scenario, where arbitrary rules and outdated concepts, limit the objectiveness of those who practice it.
Some comments from the viewers of the video:
The only thing that comes to mind with the mid mounted scope is that it seems like Cooper wanted all the benefits of a modern red dot and magnifier combo but the technology wasn't there at the time.
I've read the book. A handy bolt rifle is an amazing, do most things decently, tool. That's why people can't leave the scout rifle concept alone. Optics have come a helluva long ways since Cooper's day. So, what I cannot understand is why almost nobody can wrap their brain around the idea of building a handy bolt rifle with updated modern concepts. For instance a 16-18" barreled 6.5cm/308 with say a 1-6, 1-8, or 1-10 scope on it. Lucky Gunner did a great series on practical rifles. That is the only time I've heard someone say it like it is: " The scout rifle concept is great, so throw out the parts that don't make modern sense, and drive on." I don't understand why that's so difficult.
I think it's one of those instances where the concept had a specific time and place, and they no longer exist, and thus the concept has been outdated. Especially when you factor in the development of firearms in the last 50 years, optics in particular.The whole concept only exists in a hunting scenario, where arbitrary rules and outdated concepts, limit the objectiveness of those who practice it.
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What is this "if you dare" stuff? - dan
Socialist Kanuckistan at the very bottom of mendicity. If you want the book, you will get it on your own dime. Gatehouse.
Better yet, why don't you simply commandeer the book from me? You are able to do that, no?
I'm actually not a socialist beggar. I'm also not a scout rifle zealot. I don't want the book. I'm completely uninterested in the book.
But you really, really want me to read the book, and the only way that is going to happen is if you send me a copy and maybe I will get around to reading it when I am on vacation this coming February.
I dare you.
The youtube viewers comments are in alignment with what the open minded here have been saying all along in this thread. The fanatics meanwhile yell into the ether about “rules”, “dare you” and “read the book” as to why a scout rifle cannot evolve into a better version of itself.That Youtube video directed me to Ian from Forgotten Weapons review of Richard Mann's Scout Rifle book. Also interesting. "How serious are Coopers rules anyway?" is a great comment from Ian.
Some comments from the viewers of the video:
The only thing that comes to mind with the mid mounted scope is that it seems like Cooper wanted all the benefits of a modern red dot and magnifier combo but the technology wasn't there at the time.
I've read the book. A handy bolt rifle is an amazing, do most things decently, tool. That's why people can't leave the scout rifle concept alone. Optics have come a helluva long ways since Cooper's day. So, what I cannot understand is why almost nobody can wrap their brain around the idea of building a handy bolt rifle with updated modern concepts. For instance a 16-18" barreled 6.5cm/308 with say a 1-6, 1-8, or 1-10 scope on it. Lucky Gunner did a great series on practical rifles. That is the only time I've heard someone say it like it is: " The scout rifle concept is great, so throw out the parts that don't make modern sense, and drive on." I don't understand why that's so difficult.
I think it's one of those instances where the concept had a specific time and place, and they no longer exist, and thus the concept has been outdated. Especially when you factor in the development of firearms in the last 50 years, optics in particular.The whole concept only exists in a hunting scenario, where arbitrary rules and outdated concepts, limit the objectiveness of those who practice it.
I have most of his books and a collection of articles, all in storage at the moment. I have a couple of his books as ebooks too, I believe (Art Of The Rifle and To Ride, Shoot Straight And Speak The Truth). Man wrote a lot. - dan
Big Bad
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
How can I not love something that I'm in complete agreement with?That Youtube video directed me to Ian from Forgotten Weapons review of Richard Mann's Scout Rifle book. Also interesting. "How serious are Coopers rules anyway?" is a great comment from Ian.
Some comments from the viewers of the video:
The only thing that comes to mind with the mid mounted scope is that it seems like Cooper wanted all the benefits of a modern red dot and magnifier combo but the technology wasn't there at the time.
I've read the book. A handy bolt rifle is an amazing, do most things decently, tool. That's why people can't leave the scout rifle concept alone. Optics have come a helluva long ways since Cooper's day. So, what I cannot understand is why almost nobody can wrap their brain around the idea of building a handy bolt rifle with updated modern concepts. For instance a 16-18" barreled 6.5cm/308 with say a 1-6, 1-8, or 1-10 scope on it. Lucky Gunner did a great series on practical rifles. That is the only time I've heard someone say it like it is: " The scout rifle concept is great, so throw out the parts that don't make modern sense, and drive on." I don't understand why that's so difficult.
I think it's one of those instances where the concept had a specific time and place, and they no longer exist, and thus the concept has been outdated. Especially when you factor in the development of firearms in the last 50 years, optics in particular.The whole concept only exists in a hunting scenario, where arbitrary rules and outdated concepts, limit the objectiveness of those who practice it.
It seems a scout rifle can be whatever you want it to be. Coopers scout rifle is not necessarily Gatehouse’s scout rifle, is not necessarily the next guys scout rifle. And that’s just fine.
Cooper never seemed satisfied and is no longer around to dictate the rules, and neither will any of us be for too much longer. Don’t sweat it.
Rough parameters being iron sights, lpvo/mpvo, lightish, accurate, quick to shoulder, shortish barrel, commonly available calibre, mag fed, easy to dissemble and clean. Pic and choose what you want that works for you, plus throw some of your own necessary’s in there.
Some choices (lpvo over an mpvo) will add weight and not be for everyone. Some may not need/want irons. Some may not need/want optics at all. Some may prefer a pistol grip, some may prefer a birds head stock. Some may prefer a 6.5 or a .308 or maybe even a 30-06!?
My practical isn’t necessarily your practical. Ask yourself what you’re gonna use it for - not what someone else is using it for - then go out and actually use it and see what works - or doesn’t.
Nothing worse than building and debating the scout rifle concept to the death and then letting your multi thousand dollar creation sit in the safe as I suspect some of us here do…
If it’s been used as a scout rifle, then it’s a scout rifle. If it’s sitting in the back of the closet all dressed up with nowhere to go, then it’s a waste of time and money and no amount of eye relief, iron sights or LPVOs will make it a scout rifle.
Cooper never seemed satisfied and is no longer around to dictate the rules, and neither will any of us be for too much longer. Don’t sweat it.
Rough parameters being iron sights, lpvo/mpvo, lightish, accurate, quick to shoulder, shortish barrel, commonly available calibre, mag fed, easy to dissemble and clean. Pic and choose what you want that works for you, plus throw some of your own necessary’s in there.
Some choices (lpvo over an mpvo) will add weight and not be for everyone. Some may not need/want irons. Some may not need/want optics at all. Some may prefer a pistol grip, some may prefer a birds head stock. Some may prefer a 6.5 or a .308 or maybe even a 30-06!?
My practical isn’t necessarily your practical. Ask yourself what you’re gonna use it for - not what someone else is using it for - then go out and actually use it and see what works - or doesn’t.
Nothing worse than building and debating the scout rifle concept to the death and then letting your multi thousand dollar creation sit in the safe as I suspect some of us here do…
If it’s been used as a scout rifle, then it’s a scout rifle. If it’s sitting in the back of the closet all dressed up with nowhere to go, then it’s a waste of time and money and no amount of eye relief, iron sights or LPVOs will make it a scout rifle.
That's a great quote.
This ^ for sure.
Whether Cooper would or would not be willing to dramatically alter his vision of the "perfect" scout rifle is questionable. Would he accept a twice-as-heavy optic to get more optical capability? Seems doubtful to me, since light weight is one of the most basic necessities of the scout concept as he defined it. And he did, after all, specifically call for less rather than more magnification. But we'll never know...
We can also debate forever about the pluses and minuses of our own "scout" creations. Everybody's gun is his own, as it should be. So your scout is whatever you want it to be....
I always chuckle when reading some of these debates on the scout forum or elsewhere, when owners rise up in anger because this rifle or that rifle is 2 ounces too heavy, or an inch too long, or perhaps fires the "wrong" cartridge to be a "real" scout. Cooper didn't mock these creations, but he did tend to always point out if one was not adhering strictly to the guidelines he had set out. He even grudgingly admitted that the Steyr didn't quite "make weight". And the purists talk about "pseudo-scouts" and even "scout-shaped objects" when discussing their creations, just to differentiate them from "true" scouts.
So, my beloved Marlin 1895 SBL with a scout scope makes me happy...but it technically isn't a true scout. Back in the day, I had a Chinese clone of the short-barreled Springfield M1A wearing a forward mount and scout scope...I loved shooting it, but it certainly wasn't a true scout. I've had a Steyr Scout in .223...which a lot of the fans called the "cub scout"...because it wasn't a true scout. I've assembled a few other "scout-ish" rifles that I quite liked, such as a Savage model 10 in 7.62x39, that weren't true scouts. I even have a Savage MkII .22lr with a forward mount and scout scope put together to use as a trainer for the "scout concept"...but of course it isn't a true scout.
We can argue about whether or not Cooper somehow owned the term "scout rifle" all we want. But, when it comes right down to it, how about reading the title of this thread? It doesn't say "what is a scout?" It specifically asks...
What is a Cooper scout / Gunsite Ranch rifle?
And the only correct answer to that very specific question is the same today as it was back when Cooper came up with the idea...regardless of whether or not we like it.
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Big Bad
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Good review of the Steyr Scout in this video. As I think I said at the start of this thread, I did not come upon the Scout Rifle concept via the hunting community and a lot about how others view it has been a surprise to me. I feel like I've learned a lot, always a good thing, surely.
Big Bad
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
And finally, I think, here's a modern take on the Scout concept that's a lot more faithful (and complicated) than mine. If anyone is familiar with the off and on tripod mount this guy runs past with a bare mention, please post the the info here.
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