What is a good group at 200m, 300m
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That's a loaded question. it depends on what type of gun your shooting, and even what caliber. Black rifles < 1moa is considered good. For a small bore PRS, 1.5" and 2.25" at 300y would be considered pretty dam good. Smaller is obviously better. My personal best was 5 shots at 300y 2" group with a sako trg22.
Since this is a question in the Rimfire Forum and the OP refers to small bore it should be taken that it refers to .22LR. Most shooting with .22LR is usually at 50 yards/meters, the distance at which the round performs best, although many like to shoot at double the distance, where ammo and wind are as inextricably at play as rifle and shooter skill.
The best .22LR ammo can easily have an extreme spread (ES in velocity) of 30 fps, perhaps more. At 100 yards alone, every 10 fps difference comes to 1/4 inch of vertical spread. A 10 mph crosswind at 100 yards results in a drift of over 4.5 inches at 100 yards. What this means is that accurate shooting at 100 yards is very challenging. It is achievable by shooters with good ammo and with good wind reading and shooting skills. This is very clear when comparing shooting results between 50 and 100 yards. What is straightforward at 50 is not simply doubled at twice the distance. So much more comes into play. Shooting at 200 and 300 yards/meters for score or group size is a real challenge as the round is not designed for such use.
The best .22LR ammo can easily have an extreme spread (ES in velocity) of 30 fps, perhaps more. At 100 yards alone, every 10 fps difference comes to 1/4 inch of vertical spread. A 10 mph crosswind at 100 yards results in a drift of over 4.5 inches at 100 yards. What this means is that accurate shooting at 100 yards is very challenging. It is achievable by shooters with good ammo and with good wind reading and shooting skills. This is very clear when comparing shooting results between 50 and 100 yards. What is straightforward at 50 is not simply doubled at twice the distance. So much more comes into play. Shooting at 200 and 300 yards/meters for score or group size is a real challenge as the round is not designed for such use.
^this. I have yet to push my best 22/best ammo past about 75 yards but will admit, I play at a ranged 50 most of the time. 75 if it's REALLY calm (which it never seems to be) but anything past that I'm usually using reactive targets like empty propane cylinders. Camping sized ones, painted white...then with construction orange. Clay pigeons are fun too.
Some nice group, great shooting
Created two documents for Eley Match and Lapua CenterX from Sierra Infinity 6 with 25 yard stops to 300 yards.
While I used 1 mph of wind, that is enough to move the bullet over 3" at 300 yards. 3.42 for the CX.
No idea why the CenterX would not load to photobucket but the BC and velocity is lower.
Hope this much helps. Even CCI MiniMags group nicely when the ES is in the range of 4-10 which is a rare as hens' teeth.
While I used 1 mph of wind, that is enough to move the bullet over 3" at 300 yards. 3.42 for the CX.
No idea why the CenterX would not load to photobucket but the BC and velocity is lower.
Hope this much helps. Even CCI MiniMags group nicely when the ES is in the range of 4-10 which is a rare as hens' teeth.
Thats a handy chart, you can see why the HMR's and WSM's make sense for rimfire shooting over 100 yards.
A 25 yard miscalculation in distance at 250 yards, is about 20-22" difference, this is a bit far for shooting gophers but you can see how those ballistics make it difficult. The WSM at that distance +/- 25 yards is about 2-4" depending on which round (20-25 grain) and you will notice the wind a bit less.
Edit: I read you cal wrong, that is 20-22" difference in elevation if you are out in distance by 25 yards compared to the WSM. As for wind drift, maybe only 1/2 to 2/3 as much, but it's the vertical I'd be more concerned with.
My view is on actual field shooting, gophers and such, not just targets at known ranges, and a contrast of rimfires, sure there are better centre fires, that's not this sub-forum though as you know.
A 25 yard miscalculation in distance at 250 yards, is about 20-22" difference, this is a bit far for shooting gophers but you can see how those ballistics make it difficult. The WSM at that distance +/- 25 yards is about 2-4" depending on which round (20-25 grain) and you will notice the wind a bit less.
Edit: I read you cal wrong, that is 20-22" difference in elevation if you are out in distance by 25 yards compared to the WSM. As for wind drift, maybe only 1/2 to 2/3 as much, but it's the vertical I'd be more concerned with.
My view is on actual field shooting, gophers and such, not just targets at known ranges, and a contrast of rimfires, sure there are better centre fires, that's not this sub-forum though as you know.
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The .17HMR is hardly the grail for 100 yard shooting accuracy. The same 10 mph crosswind that moves a standard velocity .22LR round about 4.7 inches moves a 17 grain HMR round 3.2" (only 1.5" less). Furthermore, there is no such thing as match grade .17HMR ammo, while there is a good variety of .22LR match ammo. If .17HMR ammo is ballparked at twenty dollars for a box of 50 rounds, there's a lot of really good .22LR match ammo available for the same price. WSM ammo does better than HMR but is as costly.
From a practical POV (and from a decent HMR shooting it's favorite ammo) the average shooter can usually do better with 17HMR @ 100 yards than they can do with any 22, no matter what it is...or what it's eating. At least from my shooting experiences, and from what I've witnessed others doing. I think the more I (personally) dissected what these calibers can do, and at what distances...a zippier .17 seemed to make more sense to me, so I bought a 17 Hornet. I look at 22s as being the best short range target/-100 yard-ish small varmint guns. 17HMR decent 100 yard target/150-175 yard-ish small varmint guns. And by "small", I mean things like gophers out at those distances. I've seen 17HMRs effectiveness on bigger varmints in/around 100 yards and it wasn't overly inspiring.
Says it all right there. If you are of a certain mind, it is fun to try, though, but you cannot do so with any expectation of excellent accuracy consistently. When it all comes together, you will shoot some very nice results from time to time, but most targets will either have you giggling at the absurdity of attempting long range accuracy with a rimfire or throwing your targets in the trash in disgust. I can't really judge the wind at that distance, so I wait for the calmest days possibly to attempt shooting it.
Then when the wind does settle down for a bit... some inconsistent rounds will show their faces (of course!)
Sub-MOA at 200 is possible with a great rifle and a great lot of ammo on a really calm day, best 10-shot group I've done so far.
Nice Group, but is it repeatable? I have had some flukey small groups at 200 and 300 yards, but I could not do it day after day. For hunting the Manitoba Gophers, we considered 150 yards (using a rangefinder) as pretty well the outer end of the .22 rimfire for consistent hits, and that was on a calmer day, which if you are familiar with Manitoba weather, occurs about once every blue moon. I use a modified Kimber 82 G target rifle as the single shot available makes me concentrate on the target.
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Well if it actually looks like a group instead of a handful of bullets thrown at the page than you are off to a good start.
I haven't been able to find a calm day to shoot past 200 yards, but MOA or better and you can be happy with your set up.
Last attempt at 300 yards was averaging 2.5-3xMOA with a Savage Mark 2. Big wind gusts would push the round out into the briar patch though, so its more about timing the shot than judging the wind. Probably not a good strategy for a timed PRS match.
I haven't been able to find a calm day to shoot past 200 yards, but MOA or better and you can be happy with your set up.
Last attempt at 300 yards was averaging 2.5-3xMOA with a Savage Mark 2. Big wind gusts would push the round out into the briar patch though, so its more about timing the shot than judging the wind. Probably not a good strategy for a timed PRS match.
Took some time but the Lapua CenterX uploaded and similar pictures of CCI MiniMags (HP & RN) were produced.
When velocities were run for the two the RN were just over 1200 and the HP's were just under 1300 averaged.
The changes in the wind drift may not be significant at 1 mph but it will be when it hits double digits.
The next challenge will be to try Target sights at 300 . . . Just mount a sight target 10 to 11 feet above the POI.
The MiniMags were added because there is some misconception that they are "Just as Good" and there is no difference between MM's and American Eagle or whatever is cheapest.
Sorry about the cant . . . sometimes I am just not on the level! If someone wants another variation of the above you may ask. The Federal Match 922A is produced by RWS to R50 standards and I had some where R50 was printed on the inside flap. No velocities have been run on R50 nor the 922A's. The published velocities on the Eley match ammo is close enough to use. I believe the velocity code on Lapua is pretty close too.
My printer does not have sufficient quality to print these pictures . . .
When velocities were run for the two the RN were just over 1200 and the HP's were just under 1300 averaged.
The changes in the wind drift may not be significant at 1 mph but it will be when it hits double digits.
The next challenge will be to try Target sights at 300 . . . Just mount a sight target 10 to 11 feet above the POI.
The MiniMags were added because there is some misconception that they are "Just as Good" and there is no difference between MM's and American Eagle or whatever is cheapest.
Sorry about the cant . . . sometimes I am just not on the level! If someone wants another variation of the above you may ask. The Federal Match 922A is produced by RWS to R50 standards and I had some where R50 was printed on the inside flap. No velocities have been run on R50 nor the 922A's. The published velocities on the Eley match ammo is close enough to use. I believe the velocity code on Lapua is pretty close too.
My printer does not have sufficient quality to print these pictures . . .
Glad some other folks picked up on "small bore" = rimfire = not a 6.5 or .308 or anything with a primer in it. Thank you!
Everyone knows pretty much what a good .22 group is (relative to equipment) at out to 100m but beyond I honestly wasn't sure, so again thanks for your feedback and awesome pictures!
I feel a lot better about the upcoming RIMFIRE .22 matches. Now to find a 300m range....
Everyone knows pretty much what a good .22 group is (relative to equipment) at out to 100m but beyond I honestly wasn't sure, so again thanks for your feedback and awesome pictures!
I feel a lot better about the upcoming RIMFIRE .22 matches. Now to find a 300m range....
Tomorrow I am going to run some Eley Match out of my H & R 5200 with Target Sights.
Sighted in at 100 meters it will require 39 MOA to go to 300 yards.
Sounds like fun. I will let you know. Hopefully I will have enough elevation.
CHANGE OF PLANS: WORK CALLED
Sighted in at 100 meters it will require 39 MOA to go to 300 yards.
Sounds like fun. I will let you know. Hopefully I will have enough elevation.
CHANGE OF PLANS: WORK CALLED
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Thanks for this. Roundabout what I was getting at. Are 300m shots with a .22 more a combination of divine intervention and witchcraft, or are they really achievable.
at the CRPS invitational back in March, I had no issues hitting a full size IPSC plate at 267m with Eley Sport ammo, once I had the proper wind-age call.... Sadly I didn't have that while my shots counted for points... 
Once we were playing around when we had a few minutes and had a spotter calling my wind-age, I was able to mag dump 30ish rounds in 60 seconds and hit 80%. When we took our time it was closer to 95% with the varying wind. But remember I'm a professional armature! lol
Once we were playing around when we had a few minutes and had a spotter calling my wind-age, I was able to mag dump 30ish rounds in 60 seconds and hit 80%. When we took our time it was closer to 95% with the varying wind. But remember I'm a professional armature! lol
