What is considered a good gun?

DsrtRat

DsrtRat

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I know this might sound like an odd question, but here goes. What is considered a good shootin gun? The reason I ask is I see a lot of posts mentioning 1MOA and the some talking about that elusive 1/2MOA rifle, then there is the ragged hole gun etc....

What is the cutoff for it to be considered "precise"? I am 1 year into shooting the Varmint type rifles and enjoy reloading and doing what I can to squeeeeeze that extra little bit out of my gun. I see some people shooting factory guns .25 and yet some folks are getting custom barrels and tuned actions that are happy with .75-.5.

Is there a magic formula? Does a custom barrel on a decent action bedded into a good stock = .5 or better? Or, is there still a little voodoo magic in that you can get lucky with a factory or custom rig and you might get a .75 or it could be a .25 gun?

The reason I am asking is I have a little project gun on the go right now. It is a Savage VLP .223 that I picked up. The previous owner did not handload and was not getting great results from it. I will be testing it tomorow with a variety of loads to see what it will do. If I can get it to shoot MOA is it a good gun? If it will do .5, I am assuming yes. But if it doesn't shoot for beans, would a custom barrel bring it around or is there a chance that you could pump out 500.00$ for a custom pipe and end up with a gun that shoots sub-par?

I was under the assumption that a custom barrel on a good action with proper bedding and a good trigger would equate to a tac driver. Am I wrong?
 
Well, a good gun is one that shoots as accurately as you need it to be :) Seriously, most hunting rifles need not be any better then 1-1.5MOA to work effectively. On the flip-side, a benchrest shooter needs a gun that makes a zero-sized group to win in his competitions.

It takes more than equipment however, and yes, the barrel is the biggest contributor to potential rifle accuracy. You can't make a lousy barrel shoot any better, but you can improve your own skills at shooting and reloading. Ultimate success is achieved when all three come together.... skill, load development, and rifle precision.

As a competitive long-range shooter, I truly feel that when developing your shooting skill, you must have a gun that will shoot precisely. You will never learn to read conditions if that bizarre flyer was a byproduct of a mediocre gun. Accurate guns teach you to be a better shooter.

Not all custom barrels are the same, but the majority of match-quality barrels, combined with a proper chamber cut for the type of bullets you use will make a rifle into a sub .5MOA rifle. I am not happy until I achieve even better than that. To be successful at F-Class, you really need a .2-.3MOA gun. It takes skill at shooting and reloading to achieve those sorts of results consistently.

Does that shed any light?
 
Yes. Thanks.

I know that a .75 shooter will not become a .25 shooter simply beause of a good gun. When reloading, if I want my best results, I am neck sizing fireformed brass, cleaning primer pockets and measuring powder to .1 of a grain. So far my factory REM700 with a boyds stock, if I do my part consistantly as a shooter will do .3 or better. I have days where .5 is is all I am capable of but those a fewer than the good days. This is all 100 yard stuff.

The reason I am looking at the Savage is it has a 9 twist which would allow me to get a little further out than my 12 twist does. UNfortunately, the "BOSS" isn't allowing a huge budget for my toys and I will probably only keep one of the guns. I have not really done serious load development on the REM and wouldn't be surprised if I could get it into the .2s on a regular basis.

I am not sure what this Savage will do until I shoot it tomorow night. If it won't shoot (.5 minimum), I will have the option of selling it or rebarreling it. What I don;t want is to rebarrel the thing and end up with an MOA gun. I have a tack driver that will shoot lighter bullets great but not sure I want to settle on an "OK" gun that will shoot further.
 
As was said, accuracy is really up to the end user and their needs. There really is no one right answer..... just depends.

Having just worked on a VLP that is capable of holding the V bull on the F class targets (surprised but I'll take it), I feel that you have great potential at a very accurate shooting rifle.

Bedding is the single most important thing you can do that factory rifle. The inletting is way too generous.

Once bedded, tweak the accutrigger so it is as light and safe as possible. It will get quite light and have a nice crisp pull. From there, handloads using 75gr Amax or Berger VLD's, Varget and CCI 450 primers in either Win or Lapua brass will yield the best results.

I set the overall length to fit and feed from the mag and tune using very small increments of powder.

How accurate? I have yet to see a Savage that wouldn't shoot sub MOA. Some have been teeny tiny, some have been around 1/2 min. There really isn't anyway to know except to send lead downrange.

The VLP I had (now sold to another F class shooter) would cluster 5rds around 1/2 to 3/4" at 200yds. That is fantastic performance and not typical of factory rifles - we got a great pipe.

If you have seen any of my posts, you will know that I am very partial to the Savage action and consider the best deal for future modifications if peak accuracy is demanded.

That is how I assemble my F class rig and they shoot very well (except when the throat burn out GRRRRR). For the Fclass game, they are every bit as competitive as any other rig on the line.

I put on a Shilen Select Match barrel, work up a load and go compete. A barrel swap WILL improve your accuracy BUT is that level of accuracy vs costs warranted?

Best thing to do is try and the rifle and see what floats your boat. Either the Rem or Savage will do very well for any future shooting ambition. The resources for either platform is HUGE. Definitely a Chev vs Ford debate.

What the Savage does give you is the option to do all the work yourself - barrel swaps, trigger adjustments and mods, change bolt heads/handles/anything. So if you like to tinker and/or save some costs, this is the way I would go.

One area that you may need help with is the bolt timing. Here I tweak that bolt so that bolt lift and functioning is much smoother and lighter. Turns the cycling of the action into something similar to a custom action. The factory set up can be pretty clunky and heavy.

Let me know if you need help with bedding, bolt timing, reloading gear and maybe, a new match barrel.

Enjoy...

Jerry
 
You wont go wrong with an up grade to custom barrel. I bought one from Mystic ( 1 in 7 twist 223 )and run some 80 berger VLDs though it. Just finished the load development and I am realy happy with the 1 to 1 1/2 groups at 300M when I do my part.
 
DsrtRat said:
Yes. Thanks.

I know that a .75 shooter will not become a .25 shooter simply beause of a good gun. When reloading, if I want my best results, I am neck sizing fireformed brass, cleaning primer pockets and measuring powder to .1 of a grain. So far my factory REM700 with a boyds stock, if I do my part consistantly as a shooter will do .3 or better. I have days where .5 is is all I am capable of but those a fewer than the good days. This is all 100 yard stuff.

The reason I am looking at the Savage is it has a 9 twist which would allow me to get a little further out than my 12 twist does. UNfortunately, the "BOSS" isn't allowing a huge budget for my toys and I will probably only keep one of the guns. I have not really done serious load development on the REM and wouldn't be surprised if I could get it into the .2s on a regular basis.

I am not sure what this Savage will do until I shoot it tomorow night. If it won't shoot (.5 minimum), I will have the option of selling it or rebarreling it. What I don;t want is to rebarrel the thing and end up with an MOA gun. I have a tack driver that will shoot lighter bullets great but not sure I want to settle on an "OK" gun that will shoot further.
Click to expand...


Re-barrel your Remington 700 and you have the best of all worlds for less money than buying another gun.
 
Thanks again for the info guys.

I have thought about rebarrelling the REM but I just hate to take the current action and barrel apart since it shoots so well. If my current barrel was a little faster twist, I wouldn't even be having this conversation. I love the accuracy but would like to be able to shoot the heavier bullets.

Guess I can't ride two horses with the same a$$!
 
I hope you realise that taking off a barrel doesn't release the accuracy magic dust :)

All you need to do is put an index mark on the action and barrel so you can return to the same torque setting - maybe less as they are on very hard from the factory.

With another barrel, you can just spin on whichever you want to shoot that day.

Have the gunsmith pin the recoil lug and you are good to go.

When set up properly, swapping a barrel is about as complicated as changing a light bulb.

Jerry
 
When set up properly, swapping a barrel is about as complicated as changing a light bulb.
Click to expand...

Wow, I would not have thought that. I am assuming that is with a Savage Barrel nut?

Are you sure the magic dust will not fall out? LOL
 
Obtuned was refering to your Rem which would be shoulder headspace. This you just spin on and off and no headspace guage is needed - WHEN the barrel has been properly set up for that action.

The Savage nut install does require the guage so a 'bit' more complicated but easily done at home.

This has been one of the biggest appeals of the Savage platform. You can buy prefit barrels from several manf and install them on your action without fuss or installation costs.

Quality match barrels will shoot very well too.

Way back when to prove that these barrels really could be moved between actions, I took one barrel and moved it around several of my actions. Both long and short length, Savage and Stevens, New and old gen manf.

With the same batch of ammo in the appropriate stock, the barrel shot the same with all the actions.

I have purchased and sold barrels and reached the same results.

This is rarely possible with shouldered headspace, solid bolt lug actions.

Jerry
 
not to hijack this thread but since your talking about barrel swapping, if i bought a .243 stevens 200 could i get a 308 barrel from you mystic and use this for big game hunting?
 
So for you guys that have a 6mmbr built specifically for F-Class.
What sort of accuracy do you expect at lets say the 600 yard mark?
 
mysticplayer said:
As was said, accuracy is really up to the end user and their needs. There really is no one right answer..... just depends.

Having just worked on a VLP that is capable of holding the V bull on the F class targets (surprised but I'll take it), I feel that you have great potential at a very accurate shooting rifle.

Bedding is the single most important thing you can do that factory rifle. The inletting is way too generous.

Once bedded, tweak the accutrigger so it is as light and safe as possible. It will get quite light and have a nice crisp pull. From there, handloads using 75gr Amax or Berger VLD's, Varget and CCI 450 primers in either Win or Lapua brass will yield the best results.

I set the overall length to fit and feed from the mag and tune using very small increments of powder.

How accurate? I have yet to see a Savage that wouldn't shoot sub MOA. Some have been teeny tiny, some have been around 1/2 min. There really isn't anyway to know except to send lead downrange.

The VLP I had (now sold to another F class shooter) would cluster 5rds around 1/2 to 3/4" at 200yds. That is fantastic performance and not typical of factory rifles - we got a great pipe.

If you have seen any of my posts, you will know that I am very partial to the Savage action and consider the best deal for future modifications if peak accuracy is demanded.

That is how I assemble my F class rig and they shoot very well (except when the throat burn out GRRRRR). For the Fclass game, they are every bit as competitive as any other rig on the line.

I put on a Shilen Select Match barrel, work up a load and go compete. A barrel swap WILL improve your accuracy BUT is that level of accuracy vs costs warranted?

Best thing to do is try and the rifle and see what floats your boat. Either the Rem or Savage will do very well for any future shooting ambition. The resources for either platform is HUGE. Definitely a Chev vs Ford debate.

What the Savage does give you is the option to do all the work yourself - barrel swaps, trigger adjustments and mods, change bolt heads/handles/anything. So if you like to tinker and/or save some costs, this is the way I would go.

One area that you may need help with is the bolt timing. Here I tweak that bolt so that bolt lift and functioning is much smoother and lighter. Turns the cycling of the action into something similar to a custom action. The factory set up can be pretty clunky and heavy.

Let me know if you need help with bedding, bolt timing, reloading gear and maybe, a new match barrel.

Enjoy...

Jerry
Click to expand...




+1 to the timing Jerry does.


I think my rifle was gone for almost a month before I got it back from him (after he did his timing job), and I could instantly tell the difference. Worth every penny, Jerry! :dancingbanana:
 
Glad you like the work. however, the time also included postage both ways. I try and get my turnaround in 2 wks.

Xfan, the 6BR is a wonderfully accurate rd capable of shooting in the 2's and 3's at 600yds. With a good set up, holding the V bull is a matter of proper wind doping and shooting. The combo is more then capable.

All the other cartridges used in F Open from the 22BR through to the 30 maggies are also capable of the same levels of performance.

For LR/F class, there really isn't one cartridge more accurate then another. Where there is a difference is the amount of recoil which makes some cartridges EASIER to shoot consistently well.

BUT the bigger boomers tend to drift much less way out there. So F Open has become a race of compromises.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
....
Xfan, the 6BR is a wonderfully accurate rd capable of shooting in the 2's and 3's at 600yds. With a good set up, holding the V bull is a matter of proper wind doping and shooting. The combo is more then capable.

All the other cartridges used in F Open from the 22BR through to the 30 maggies are also capable of the same levels of performance.

For LR/F class, there really isn't one cartridge more accurate then another. Where there is a difference is the amount of recoil which makes some cartridges EASIER to shoot consistently well.
.....
..
Jerry
Click to expand...

Do you mean 0.2-0.3 inches at 600 yards? :eek:
 
No.... MOA...not inches.

At 600m the rifle should be able to hold 1/2 MOA or better to be competitive. Loading for the 6BR is no mystery and one can usually find a damn good load in one outing.
 
X2 CyaN1de!!

There are some cartridges that are just inherently more accurate than others. The 6mmBR is arguably the most inherently accurate cartridge after the 6PPC, but since the PPC is a short range cartridge, th 6BR is - in my mind - king of the accuracy hill. It is virtually untouchable in 300M ISSF and F-Class competition.

What makes a cartridge shoot one-hole at 100M and shoot a 10 foot group at 1000M is not so much the design of the cartridge, but all the variables that go into shooting that cartridge. Bullet and brass consistency, powder consistency, and of course shooter consistency.

Heavy 7mm and 30 cal cartridges used in long range F-CLass and BR have bullets that buck wind better. I do not believe they are more accurate, just more forgiving at long range where wind and mirage affect trajectory.
 
stoop14 said:
not to hijack this thread but since your talking about barrel swapping, if i bought a .243 stevens 200 could i get a 308 barrel from you mystic and use this for big game hunting?
Click to expand...

Switch barrel guns are made from everything, and swapping a shouldered barrel is easier and safer than having to re-headspace a barrel that is positioned with a nut. This means you can use any gun you want that has a removable barrel. Remington, Browning, Winchester etc. etc.
 
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