What Is 'Mil-Spec' Accuracy?

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One Lung Wonder

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A hundred years ago I was told that 'Mil-Spec' Accuracy set out that any firearm used by the Canadian military had to be able to do 1.5 MOA. I never even thought to question that, back then.

Is it true? I haven't heard of such a specification before or since.
 
I think the number has changed over the years, but 3" sounds pretty close. It's part of a much longer list of specifications, including reliability, repeatability, ergonomics, and projected service life.

After all, a 1/4 MOA rifle is fine and great, but not very desirable if it jams up if you go more than 10 shots without cleaning it.
 
100 years ago you were told nonsense about CF specs. 3" at 100 with NATO spec ammo. And I think that was when the rifle was new. None of the C1A1's on my MIU would come close to that with the crap IVI made. Those rifles were all mid 50's vintage too.
 
Is there a MIL-STD number for this? Seriously... Or is it in the mil-spec for the individual small arm? I quickly looked for the specs on the U.S. M4, but could not find a statement about expected accuracy from the rifle. I would have expected 3 m.o.a. from either rifle or ammo tops. But what do I know...
 
Let me enlighten you. Every conceivable part in western military has a specification & given, usually, a number designator to it. Whether it's a mil number, ms, nas, as or an iso certified part. This carries right through to private industry as well...:rolleyes:
Back to my original question: Is an individual firearm, ie. an M4 expected to meet a generic standard set forth by the military; in this case accuracy, or is the criteria set at the point in time a proposal is put out? Or is it both, as I suspect?...
 
Not sure about Mil-Spec MOA, although a C7 Rifle should keep a consistent 3"MOA (maybe slightly better) and an effective fire range of 300metres solo with an effective fire range of 600metres when combined with five other rifles/soldiers (six total).
 
US M4 rifle barrels are changed when a rifle can't shoot 3 MOA 5 shot groups at 100m with standard ammo.
(My guess is that simply means that US Army wants all of the bullets to hit a 18" wide target at 400m-500m)
In any case, any good AR15 should be able to shoot 1.5-2 MOA 5 shot groups at 100m with good ammo.
DMR type rifles with reach true 0.75 MOA 5 shot groups at 100m but these are not off the rack rifles.

Simply put:
1.5-2 MOA 5 shot group = good
3 MOA 5 shot group = bad
0.75 MOA 5 shot group = well maintained accurized AR15.

Alex

Alex
 
I believe for the m4 and NATO ball ammo it's 4moa.

NATO specifications for SS109 (U.S. M855) Ball require a 61.7 grain
with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,025 fps from a 20 inch barrel 25 meters from the muzzle. Typical velocity 15 feet from the M16A2's muzzle is around 3,100 fps. The accuracy
requirement from a test fixture equates to a maximum of approximately four
MOA over the 100 to 600 yard range.
 
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If I remember the stats correctly it's about 1 hit for every 200,000 rounds fired.......................
 
sunray said:
100 years ago you were told nonsense about CF specs. 3" at 100 with NATO spec ammo. And I think that was when the rifle was new. None of the C1A1's on my MIU would come close to that with the crap IVI made. Those rifles were all mid 50's vintage too.
Click to expand...

I concur on the IvI C1 combo. My P-H 1200 with 1/14" twist ideal for optimum accuracy in 144-147 would barely hold 2MOA with IvI 762NATO '70's vintage. And it was the best on the line when I was there at least against HB 700 Varmint's, Ruger 77V's etc, and any other combo common back in 1984. There's a little man holding a rifle too prove the P-H was the one too beat.
 
I used to have that - can't find it now, but it's closer to an extreme spread of 6 inches, with a dispersal measured above and below a line on a target. It's not as easy as "a 3 minute group" every rounds dispersal is measured and limited. It's in the library on ARFCOM - suffice it to say that any out of the box commercial AR (including Norinco) will shoot to or above the minimum spec.
 
One Lung Wonder said:
A hundred years ago I was told that 'Mil-Spec' Accuracy set out that any firearm used by the Canadian military had to be able to do 1.5 MOA. I never even thought to question that, back then.

Is it true? I haven't heard of such a specification before or since.
Click to expand...

This initial question you ask is easy to answer. No, it's not true. There is no such specification.

But reading through the thread, there is all kinds of digression. You started in Canada, but most of the discussion seems to be about the US military. People talk about C1A1s M14s and and M4's, but you never mentioned a specific firearm. This is one of those cases where if people can decide what the question is, the answer is usually not very hard to find.

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Mil 63989C for M855 ball has an accuracy spec of average horizontal and vertical std deviations of no greater than 6.8" at 600 yards, or no greater than 1.8" at 200 yars.

Note that standard deviation does not mean group size.

Mil-C071186 for M4 carbine states that testing with M855 ball conforming to Mil63989C, 10 round extreme spread at 91.4m should be no greater than 5".
 
I hate to say this, but I was lucky to hit a fig 11 target at 400 yds with a C1A1 in the late 80's with the rifles my unit was issued. IMHO it wasn't operator error (as I'm a decent shot with any rifle, .22 on up) but that the barrel was, shall we say, less than good. The barrels on my unit's rifles were almost worn smooth, understandable given that a) I was in a field artillery unit and b) CAL (IIRC makers of the C1A1 barrels) shut down in '76.
As someone who'd spent several years, and taken several whitetails and an elk with a sportered .303, I was more than disappointed.
 
greentips said:
Mil-C071186 for M4 carbine states that testing with M855 ball conforming to Mil63989C, 10 round extreme spread at 91.4m should be no greater than 5".
Click to expand...

Well I'm glad you dug that up because I was just going to say 5 MOA but I couldn't remember where I read it. That's the acceptance standard for guns from the factory. There's some official NATO standard I also read years ago that worked out roughly to 5 MOA for guns that meet the NATO standard for 5.56mm service rifles.

I remember having this discussion with someone who trained with the IDF and he said all that mattered was hitting-a-Palestinian-over-the-head-with-it accuracy. Some of the surplus IDF M16A1s I've looked at seem to bear that out.
 
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