What is the accepted group size to measure MOA

Potashminer said:
At other times, hitting that aiming point, or a particular place in relation to that (3" high), is most important.
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Bingo....What we should be striving for...walk out to the range, take the first shot and it hits 'MOA' to the 'bull' of the target you're aiming at ...you're good to go hunting.

I do 'group' shooting when I'm laddering up a load to find the consistency of the load. Not really carrying about where it hits in relation to POA. Once the sweet spot powder charge is established I then move to zero the gun for accuracy on POA.

If you're shooting factory ammo, it's a fixed variable. Then it's all about zeroing the gun and learning to shoot properly: aligning the optical axis to the mechanical axis of the gun (boresight) and then developing your own 'form' to be consistent in holding on POA (zeroing).
 
Just do like Brian Litz does and others……shoot such high round count groups that your barrel is burned out, cause it’s the statistically correct way to do it. Must be nice to get free bullets and endless primers lol.
 
Brian and other professional shooters do it for a living..gather statistics and find out what work and what’s not. They test new products..bullets ect. Brian worked for Berger..I am sure he can get any bullet - in any quantity when he wants it.

Erik Cortina represent Lapua..same for him..bullet & case are not a problem. He does not have to pre-order and wait for his stuff.

Many compete to gain notoriety and credibility in their domain. Because of it, they have access to the best gunsmiths, latest advance in bullet design, latest composite stock ect..

They get or buy components by the truckload since it is for their job…budget is definitely not a big concern for them. Anything they get..if not free..is at business price or highly discounted, not inflated retail price like we do have to pay.

For us..the inflated price is one thing but what really bother me is the constant shortage of components.
The industry is killing itself..many shooters - reloader just gave up the sport , if you can get ammo or stuff to make it..having a $5-7 k rifle is not doing you any good.
Competing - counting your bullets and ammo is no fun at all.
Rant over !:)
 
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scianna54 said:
I may add to my question. I see people at the range taking like one shot every few minutes. Is this acceptable, like waiting until the barrel cools down?
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If you are doing load development for a hunting rifle, yes - to an extent.
However, for a match rifle, things change during the course of a relay.
In TR or Fclass for example, your barrel is gong to warm up as the relay progresses, in a 10,15, or 20 round relay shootng pairs or even triples.
When I initially set a rifle up, I look for a tight group for sure, but I want that group to maintain its zero as the gun warms up.
If the group center wanders as the barrel warms there is an issue.
To that end , I shoot a three shot group, then a five shot to get a decent baseline, then I shoot a ten shot group with the rifle.
Once I get a load worked up I rarely shoot a group with it for size , all shots are on target to check how I am shooting score wise, and for me, it is never at 100 and rarely at two hundred.
Cat
 
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Lead hammer said:
Just do like Brian Litz does and others……shoot such high round count groups that your barrel is burned out, cause it’s the statistically correct way to do it. Must be nice to get free bullets and endless primers lol.
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"burned out barrel" - is perhaps a thing - but unlike normal person, some of the higher end target guys view a barrel as a consumable - like a brass case - going to have a useful lifetime, then gets replaced. Is at least one poster on CGN that used to buy barrels three at a time - would try all three - select the "best one" for competition - sell the other ones - was like an annual thing - often had spare barrels on hand - is NOT how 99% of one-gun shooters think about it. At least once, I bought two of his "discards" - plenty good enough for me!!! Goes to fallacy of some that they will get "just as good as" results - using their used, store bought, off the shelf, rifle. Is likely the difference between a 0.15" 10 shot group at 100 yards, and a 1.5" 10 shot group. I used to be very impressed if I could get a 4" 5 shot group at 200 yards with a rifle that I put together - I am reading of guys doing that at 1000 yards, now ... Besides "perfection" in rifle, loads and shooting technique, must also require some terrific wind reading ability to do that - and, no doubt, many hundreds or thousands of rounds fired in practice - and likely several "burned out" barrels.
 
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Potashminer said:
"burned out barrel" - is perhaps a thing - but unlike normal person, some of the higher end target guys view a barrel as a consumable - like a brass case - going to have a useful lifetime, then gets replaced. Is at least one poster on CGN that used to buy barrels three at a time - would try all three - select the "best one" for competition - sell the other ones - was like an annual thing - often had spare barrels on hand - is NOT how 99% of one-gun shooters think about it. At least once, I bought two of his "discards" - plenty good enough for me!!! Goes to fallacy of some that they will get "just as good as" results - using their used store bought, off the shelf, rifle. Is likely the difference between a 0.15" 10 shot group at 100 yards, and a 1.5" 10 shot group.
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Finding the best load via tons of large number groups via Litz method, he would have consumed the barrel before he came to a conclusion. Also most pro shooters tweak their loads if needed as well. So via Litz that would mean many more rounds downrange at every temp, baro change or venue change.
Don’t get me wrong the large groups thing has merit, but to a point. Small groups can get you close enough to do a test at the distance you are shooting at, with only a small tweak. Some would leave the load alone and twist the tuner instead to tweak. I think the top shooters can adapt to change along with wind to overcome other factors.

I’m not sure that Cortina is sponsored by Berger. He is always in Lapua gear, and I think I remember him using an online, search engine that sends him auto notifications.
 
Lead hammer said:
Finding the best load via tons of large number groups via Litz method, he would have consumed the barrel before he came to a conclusion. Also most pro shooters tweak their loads if needed as well. So via Litz that would mean many more rounds downrange at every temp, baro change or venue change.
Don’t get me wrong the large groups thing has merit, but to a point. Small groups can get you close enough to do a test at the distance you are shooting at, with only a small tweak. Some would leave the load alone and twist the tuner instead to tweak. I think the top shooters can adapt to change along with wind to overcome other factors.

I’m not sure that Cortina is sponsored by Berger. He is always in Lapua gear, and I think I remember him using an online, search engine that sends him auto notifications.
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Yes if you compete a lot barrels are just like tires on a race car, particularly in the new whiz bang calibres. Litz has actually convinced me the opposite. Shoot 150 rounds or so go to a known load for the barrell and reamer to tweek it slightly and I am off to compete. He has also convinced me as Cat says to ensure my zero is spot on with larger groups, at least the number I will shoot in the COF in my case at least 12 for my discipline. As far as Precision goes I just don't buy 0.15 groups all day long if I do my part, I bet if I offered $100 for 5 10 shot groups I would not loose any money. Of course the entire exercise would cost you that much at today's prices.
 
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Longbow said:
Yes if you compete a lot barrels are just like tires on a race car, particularly in the new whiz bang calibres. Litz has actually convinced me the opposite. Shoot 150 rounds or so go to a known load for the barrell and reamer to tweek it slightly and I am off to compete. He has also convinced me as Cat says to ensure my zero is spot on with larger groups, at least the number I will shoot in the COF in my case at least 12 for my discipline. As far as Precision goes I just don't buy 0.15 groups all day long if I do my part, I bet if I offered $100 for 5 10 shot groups I would not loose any money. Of course the entire exercise would cost you that much at today's prices.
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This is similar to what the ballisticians @ Hornady were saying in their podcast too, and it makes good sense. Zero your rifle for its intended purpose. If you're hunting, shooting 3 shot groups might be far more than enough, as realistically you'll likely never fire more than 3 at a given animal. Zero your optic to that group and you're set.

In your competition rig, like you say - find a good load, shoot enough of that load so that you have some legitimate data to show you how well it groups, MAX, MIN, AVG etc. and then zero for the centre of that group. You're off to the races and ready to shoot. Guns that shoot 0.15" all day are hilarious - outside of BR (and even then) the statistical likelihood of a gun shooting that well all the time is, as you say, not common.
 
Twan said:
This is similar to what the ballisticians @ Hornady were saying in their podcast too, and it makes good sense. Zero your rifle for its intended purpose. If you're hunting, shooting 3 shot groups might be far more than enough, as realistically you'll likely never fire more than 3 at a given animal. Zero your optic to that group and you're set.

In your competition rig, like you say - find a good load, shoot enough of that load so that you have some legitimate data to show you how well it groups, MAX, MIN, AVG etc. and then zero for the centre of that group. You're off to the races and ready to shoot. Guns that shoot 0.15" all day are hilarious - outside of BR (and even then) the statistical likelihood of a gun shooting that well all the time is, as you say, not common.
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I suspect that you may not be understanding about statistics, if you think 3 shots tells you where your hunting rifle is sighted for - is the whole point that each shot has variation - you want to be sighted in where there is the least variation for future shots - and a 3 shot group does not tell you that.
 
Potashminer said:
I suspect that you may not be understanding about statistics, if you think 3 shots tells you where your hunting rifle is sighted for - is the whole point that each shot has variation - you want to be sighted in where there is the least variation for future shots - and a 3 shot group does not tell you that.
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If you shoot several of those, it’ll be good enough for that purpose. It’s highly unlikely all of a sudden those few 3-shot groups were all 8” away from the ‘usual’ poa.
 
Yep - that is correct - shooting to kill a deer on broadside is perhaps 10" or 12" kill zone area on the ribs / chest - a bullet anywhere through that and the deer is dead. So even within 5" of point of aim will work - at 100 yards - is "good enough". With a 4 MOA or 6 MOA rifle plus shooter - easy to get a hole 2" away from point of aim - at 100 yards - even if perfectly "sighted in". But by only firing a 3 shot group, shooter can not know the MOA capability of his shooting plus his system. As mentioned above - several three shot groups, overlaid on top of each other, starts to give the shooter a clue of the system capability.
 
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Potashminer said:
I suspect that you may not be understanding about statistics, if you think 3 shots tells you where your hunting rifle is sighted for - is the whole point that each shot has variation - you want to be sighted in where there is the least variation for future shots - and a 3 shot group does not tell you that.
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I think you're not understanding my post. Of course a single 3 shots wont tell you where your rifle is sighted in (or it's capabilities as a system)... obviously you need to adjust your optic to that group too aha. I also did say groups, plural.. as in shooting multiple 3 shot groups could absolutely be relevant enough for its given use.

I do suggest watching the Hornady podcast, the two episodes on groups and statistics are excellent.
 
Shoot 4 five shot groups then overlay them on each other and that will give you a good idea of what your load (and you) is capable of and how your scope is sighted in.
 
scianna54 said:
I asked the experts, not some wannabe. Don't take this as offense.
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What gives you the impression that someone that shoots precision rifles (or posts in this area of the forum) knows more or less about how statistics work than someone who is into service (black) rifles (or posts in that area of the forum)?

The more you post the more you sound like a kid who hasn't done much, if any shooting at all.

In any event, like the other poster in that thread, enjoy your time here.
 
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