What is the best and worst thing that you can say about the M14?

steelgray said:
All good to convince me that it can't happen, but it did. Ditto (apparently) for the guy who lost and eye. Pretty simple to just test the guns to see if they can actually fire out of battery. All theory aside, have you tried it? If not, why not ... (awkward)

Also your post seems to imply that this had something to do with not checking the gun with a gunsmith before use "that 243 M14 and did not have it looked over before firing it and blowing it up, that's on you. Not every gunsmith is qualified to work on this platform, do you even know who did the re-barrel work when you bought it? "

i.e., like it happened on round one.

Where did you get that?

More like round 450.

Nope, IMO something allowed that round to enter the chamber and not fully close before the chamber should have locked the system and eliminated any possibility of out of battery fire - thereby, eliminating any possibility of allowing the primer to ignite. i.e., firing out-of-battery. All good stuff, IF TRUE.

Get real. Check your gun, can it happen? Don't be a goof. Tell me what you found, either way. REALLY. I'm an open minded guy...
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Since you don't know what happened, odds are pretty high that it was reloader error.
Maybe you forgot to empty the hopper completely and had a full case of pistol or fast rifle power? Maybe you didn't size a case properly, maybe you used too slow a powder and too light a bullet and had a SEE?
For your little primer test, how much bolt lug contact do you think is still safe? If there is 3/4 contact and the primer fires is that safe or catastrophic?
Out of battery means no locking at all, and I will reiterate it's pretty impossible to fire an M1 or M14 completely out of battery due to the design. Maybe you should try your own test and tell us how much lug engagement you have when the rifle is still able to fire a primer.
 
Hitzy said:
Since you don't know what happened, odds are pretty high that it was reloader error.
Maybe you forgot to empty the hopper completely and had a full case of pistol or fast rifle power? Maybe you didn't size a case properly, maybe you used too slow a powder and too light a bullet and had a SEE?
For your little primer test, how much bolt lug contact do you think is still safe? If there is 3/4 contact and the primer fires is that safe or catastrophic?
Out of battery means no locking at all, and I will reiterate it's pretty impossible to fire an M1 or M14 completely out of battery due to the design. Maybe you should try your own test and tell us how much lug engagement you have when the rifle is still able to fire a primer.
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I have separate powder measures/ dispensers mounted on powder-through dies which are part of die sets that are are permanently mounted on separate Dillon tool heads, one for each caliber. That is, my 243 dies/ powder through dies, powder measure (with the contained powder) and tool head are one unit; never diddled with.

When I reload a pistol caliber, that whole .243 reloading assembly unit (as described) comes out of my 550 and a complete die set, powder measure, dies/powder through die and tool head (assembly) is subbed-in (already holding the pistol powder). I don't cheap-out and use one powder measure for different cartridges. Who does?

As such there is ZERO chance that I didn't empty out pistol powdered before loading rifle powder in my powder measure.

The round that grenaded my real M14 was part of a lot all loaded together sequentially in one session day (i.e., I keep lots separate by reloading session). If you know the Dillon 550B you know that you get a complete round every stroke of the handle. This is NOT the goofy "old school" deal of decapping, all cases then resizing all, then priming all, etc. Do you do that?

As such, the round that grenaded my gun should have been indistinguishable from the round fired before and after - all from the same lot.

The fact that the bolt was blown clear out of the gun - and landed a long distance away, in a mangled state - strongly/ definitively suggests OOB fire. How does a complete bolt leave the gun in one piece, leaving the receiver intact, if it was locked in battery?
 
I tried to replicate slam fire on one of my m14's by using empty cases loaded with soft primers. In my testing, with a clean gun, I couldn't get a chambered round to go off. It took 10-20 droppings of the bolt on a chambered round to even get a decent dent in the soft federal primer. I also tried high primers, and got no dent whatsoever. So, for a chambered round to go off, its not easy on a clean properly functioning gun. Something clearly goes wrong from time to time, but I couldn't get it to happen with primed cases.

I didn't try to replicate an out of battery discharge. That may be more common, and dangerous. Maybe I could try it with a case too long for the chamber, but that's something not common on a Norinco as they typically have generously long chambers. Mine however has a US made bolt, and head space is not even close to the long end of specs.
 
Hitzy said:
Were either of the lugs sheared off the bolt?
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This happened 15 years or so ago when you could legally shoot a 12.3 M14 in a gravel pit (as I did). So much time has passed that I can't recall all details. Also I was a bit rattled by the event and had excruciating pain in both hands, so I didn't do a complete forenic analysis of the scene. I do recall finding the bolt which had travelled at least 15 feet and was reposing in the gravel. From memory, I believe that it was in mostly one piece and was mangled. I believe that the lugs were still part of it. I think that the bolt face was blow out as was the bottom of the bolt. The firing pin assembly wasn't in the bolt.

The mag was blown in three pieces - body, spring and follower (still one unit) and base. The wood stock was split in two main parts at the mag well with smaller pieces of wood here and there. The steel factory mag well stock insert was mangled. I think I still had this up until recently.

As I mentioned I was both injured and disoriented. As such, I just collected any parts that I thought could be reused or could have remaining value and left.

The gun was later rebuilt with USGI parts from Numeric (no problem importing a bolt in those days). I shot it for a while in that configuration. Then, when the rules about transporting 12.3 guns changed, I obtained a non-12.3 aftermarket receiver and used all other available non-receiver parts to built a gun that is non-prohibited. As such, doing the primer-only OOB fire test on that gun now wouldn't necessarily tell me what happened that day ' cause my .243 M14-pattern gun is now a gun with a different receiver, different bolt, different firing pin, etc.

I plan to do the primer-only OOB fire test on that Gun and an early production Polytech that I own this weekend - or when I can find the time. I'm not a retired guy or something.
 
I think it was more then 15 years ago that you were allowed to shoot 12.3 anywhere but an approved range? 25 years ago?
 
Grizzlypeg said:
I tried to replicate slam fire on one of my m14's by using empty cases loaded with soft primers. In my testing, with a clean gun, I couldn't get a chambered round to go off. It took 10-20 droppings of the bolt on a chambered round to even get a decent dent in the soft federal primer. I also tried high primers, and got no dent whatsoever. So, for a chambered round to go off, its not easy on a clean properly functioning gun. Something clearly goes wrong from time to time, but I couldn't get it to happen with primed cases.

I didn't try to replicate an out of battery discharge. That may be more common, and dangerous. Maybe I could try it with a case too long for the chamber, but that's something not common on a Norinco as they typically have generously long chambers. Mine however has a US made bolt, and head space is not even close to the long end of specs.
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I'm really not trying to put down the gun - I have three; one that I've had for more than 30 years and even sold and later bought back. That probably qualifies me as a fan boy.

Even so, facts are stubborn things (like I said). There's lots of stuff on the web to say that my KB wasn't unique and that OOB events are possible with a Garand and or an M14.

Disclaimer - I'm not a retired guy and I haven't fully read all this stuff. I'm sure there are references here that people will quibble with (for example I noticed that in one case the person seems to have modified the gun). Still the number of stories and articles seems significant - a lot more than on the subject of unicorn testicles.

NOTE THESE ARE LINKS. You click on them to read the relevant stuff.

The firing line

and

M14 Forum

and

Shotgun World

and

Gunboard's Forums

and

The firing line (re Garands)


Fulton Armory

and

Accurate Shooter

and

CMP Forums (with photos that kind'a remind me of something)

and

YouTube

and


and

Exterior ballistics

and

Google

The YouTube video of the KB'ed Springfield Armory SOCOM 16 stands out because it involved a new gun and factory ammo. And that gun was supposed to be brought to the manufacturer's attention by the customer.

I think that - depending on the circumstances - the CGN poster whose post I linked to, above could have a right of action against SA; i.e, evidence of a defective product and evidence that the maker knew or should have known of this risks. I know that some of you guys will go nuts and flame me for bringing that up, but ... the guy lost an eye!

Here is the link.
 
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All you have accomplished here is to ruin a perfectly good thread by side tracking, or rather, hijacking it with your personal crusade on firearms without slam fire or out of battery protection. That other thread proves your lack of knowledge on the mechanisms you are trying to discuss.
If you actually had real life m14 rifle smithing experience, I would entertain this topic in a whole new thread, but it is exceedingly clear, with each subsequent post, that you do not

I'm inclined to believe that your "experiences" are either embellished or made up nonsense for the sake of having your thoughts on this topic heard and the responses in your other thread already prove that.
 
45ACPKING said:
All you have accomplished here is to ruin a perfectly good thread by side tracking, or rather, hijacking it with your personal crusade on firearms without slam fire or out of battery protection. That other thread proves your lack of knowledge on the mechanisms you are trying to discuss.
If you actually had real life m14 rifle smithing experience, I would entertain this topic in a whole new thread, but it is exceedingly clear, with each subsequent post, that you do not

I'm inclined to believe that your "experiences" are either embellished or made up nonsense for the sake of having your thoughts on this topic heard and the responses in your other thread already prove that.
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I guess you didn't read the first part of my post

<quote>

I'm really not trying to put down the gun - I have three; one that I've had for more than 30 years and even sold and later bought back. That probably qualifies me as a fan boy.

<unquote>

Are you saying that this item isn't on the list of best and worst things about the M14? ... How does that work?

Did you click on any of the links?

My lack of knowledge isn't the thing here and the mods may not be crazy about you going there. Have a nice day.
 
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That poor bastard that lost an eye should have been wearing eye protection...
There are only 3 rifle designs I will shoot with no eye protection....Rem 700, Mauser 98, Savage 10. That's it.
 
45ACPKING said:
All you have accomplished here is to ruin a perfectly good thread by side tracking, or rather, hijacking it with your personal crusade on firearms without slam fire or out of battery protection. That other thread proves your lack of knowledge on the mechanisms you are trying to discuss.
If you actually had real life m14 rifle smithing experience, I would entertain this topic in a whole new thread, but it is exceedingly clear, with each subsequent post, that you do not

I'm inclined to believe that your "experiences" are either embellished or made up nonsense for the sake of having your thoughts on this topic heard and the responses in your other thread already prove that.
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Painfully clear, I wasn’t gonna chime in but this guys stuff is painful to read honestly I don’t even know where to begin
 
Hitzy said:
That poor bastard that lost an eye should have been wearing eye protection...
There are only 3 rifle designs I will shoot with no eye protection....Rem 700, Mauser 98, Savage 10. That's it.
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I don't believe the poster who indicated that he lost an eye said anything - either way - about wearing eye protection.

Here is the link.

I can't back it up, but I would think that someone shooting an expensive gun like a Springfield Armory M1A1 wouldn't typically make a rookie mistake of shooting without eye protection.

I have already described what happened when my Winchester M14 12.3 gun grenaded and I was wearing eye protection. But in that earlier post, I mentioned that I consider myself to have been lucky because, if the bolt and blast leaving the top of the gun had taken a different path, my eye protection wouldn't have protected me.

The downward blast I experienced was a lot more violent that the upward blast. I won't repeat the details. However, what probably mitigated harm to me was that I was shooting in a quarry where there was no shooting bench - so I was shooting offhand; something that I might do maybe 2% of the time. That would have let the downward pressure escape more than if the blast encountered a shooting bench and was forced back upward. I'm pretty sure that even a downward-only blast could cause eye injuries, if the shooter was hunched over a shooting bench.
 
Weight killed the M14, not the rifle but the rounds. 5.56 you can carry more by volume and weight and still maintain a good medium engagement range.

I remember reading when the afghan war was in full swing the Germans had dug out their G3's and issued them out so they could reach out further, both calibers have upsides and downsides, gun/ammo design are a game of compromise. You cant have best of both worlds typically.
 
steelgray said:
I don't believe the poster who indicated that he lost an eye said anything - either way - about wearing eye protection.

Here is the link.

I can't back it up, but I would think that someone shooting an expensive gun like a Springfield Armory M1A1 wouldn't typically make a rookie mistake of shooting without eye protection.

I have already described what happened when my Winchester M14 12.3 gun grenaded and I was wearing eye protection. But in that earlier post, I mentioned that I consider myself to have been lucky because, if the bolt and blast leaving the top of the gun had taken a different path, my eye protection wouldn't have protected me.

The downward blast I experienced was a lot more violent that the upward blast. I won't repeat the details. However, what probably mitigated harm to me was that I was shooting in a quarry where there was no shooting bench - so I was shooting offhand; something that I might do maybe 2% of the time. That would have let the downward pressure escape more than if the blast encountered a shooting bench and was forced back upward. I'm pretty sure that even a downward-only blast could cause eye injuries, if the shooter was hunched over a shooting bench.
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I wear Revision Sawfly's when shooting. They will stop 12gauge #6 lead shot...rest of my face may be missing if I have a KB but I will still have my eyes lol.
 
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Hitzy said:
That poor bastard that lost an eye should have been wearing eye protection...
There are only 3 rifle designs I will shoot with no eye protection....Rem 700, Mauser 98, Savage 10. That's it.
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He says that it was -25 and his eye protection was fogging up.

In my case, I had eye crappy protection and was shooting off-hand. Plus the gas release and the exploding bolt decided to blow forward and upward.

The two situations saved me but not him - even though mine was probably the more-potentially catastrophic.

... and, as a matter of fact, I have have had 3 KBs/ out-of-battery events effect me in the last 50+ years.

I am lucky, and I get that

Before you get on me and say that I must a crappy reloader, Nope ...
 
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