What is the best long action tactical round?

Long Range Canuck said:
My vote.....still 300WM...Less recoil=less fatigue greater accuracy. Less powder=cheaper to shoot. Excellent accuracy and wind bucking with heavy 190+ grn bullets. 30 cal bullets are also cheaper than .338.

Just my opinion.
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if you guys are talking with muzzle brakes( and you usually do) then the 338 lapua will do it better at the longer ranges because the brake gets rid of thhe recoil caveat.

The 338 lapua actions that sako makes don't weigh very much more than a 300WM, ( especially the cast Dakota) , either.
BC is right up there with thhe 225/250 grain bullets , also.
I have shot one , and shot the 300 win mag, both with brakes and without.
I don't like eoither unless they are brake equipped, and would not shoot either unless I had to however, and i don't.
Your mileage may vary!:D
Cat
 
Yes, these application would be with breaks, we all plan to shoot more than 10 rds per day :) @ a reasonable price of course (Reloading).
 
Airborn_69 said:
Yes, these application would be with breaks, we all plan to shoot more than 10 rds per day :) @ a reasonable price of course (Reloading).
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No contest then!
My kid BTW, shot a 3/4" group at 200 when he was under 15 with a Sako in 338 Lapua ( the TRGS) with an answer brake and recoil pad on it.
It's a great rifle and has accounted for many head of game ( moose ,mountain goats and deer) from 75 to out past 600 yards.
Cat
 
Airborn, do add the 7RM to your list. Compare the ballistics of the 180gr Berger at 3000fps/162gr Amax at 3100fps and you will see that it exceeds the WM by alot and about equal to the Lapua with either the 250gr Scenar and 300gr MK. Would be better if you end up with a slow Lapua.

I have gone down the same road and spent alot of time and research on this. Then I just started building rifles to put theory into practise.

There is no doubt that a big case pushing those 338 300gr MK is the best of the sub 50cal offerings for extreme range wind drift reduction. However, the Lapua does not rate as a big case in my books. The usual preformance is 2800fps. some rifles have printed their best accuracy around 2700fps which really reduces its prowess beyond 1000m.

When you start pushing the 300gr MK at 3000fps and above do you really benefit from this rather expensive bullet. There is little issue with the Lapua and 250gr Scenar going to the mile.

Inside 1km, you are not using the potential to its fullness. A fast 6.5 will do anything you could possibly want on paper and likely more accurate to boot. A 6.5-284 can now easily push a 139/142gr bullet into the 3100fps with coffee cup accuracy at the KM. Low recoil, lower cost, etc.

If just plinking, a 223 or 22/250 and 80gr amax will do just fine. As would the 6BR. But if you are looking for the lowest wind drift, highest BC for the given cost...7mm

I really like the 7RM and the 162gr amax and 180gr Berger in a long barrel will give you stellar performance that will eclipse the 6.5's, small case 30's (WM is a small case, Wby much better, RUM better still) and small case 338's.

If your plan is to include some LR hunting, the 7mm will also work but would increase to the STW. You can never have too much horsepower at LR when hunting so would rather suggest a 300RUM w/ 220 to 240gr bullets, 338 Mystic (338-300RUM improved) or larger 338.

I have plinked with my 6.5 Mystic at 1400m with milk jug type accuracy. Just did an afternoon of 300RUM at 1600m with some 220gr MK. Will try and get out to 1950m next week. Setting up my 223 for 1000m shooting tomorrow.

If a Lapua is a dream build, go for it. Otherwise, there are many ballistic equivalents that are easier to build and shoot.

If you really want a 338 (Lapua), then consider the 338 RUM or 338 Mystic. Both can be put into way more actions and give equal or higher performance.
Jerry
 
I thought the discuussion was between the 3338 Lapua and the 300Win Mag?:confused:
However, I would like to add a bit more if I was at first mistaken!
The 1 mile BR record as far as I know is still held by a 7WSM. (10 shots in 20"?)
Not thatt the case means much, but as Mystic mentioned, it's the 7mm the bullet.
As far as accuracy goes, my 6.5 WSM runs rings around the Sako in 338 Lapua at 1K.
But the 6.5 leaves a pretty good mark on the steel, whereas the Lapuua DENTS it!:D
This is with a 6.5 140 grain bullet as opposed to a 250 grain bullet, both with about the same time of flight and very close to the same trajectory.

Cat
 
catnthehatt said:
The 338 lapua actions that sako makes don't weigh very much more than a 300WM, ( especially the cast Dakota)
Cat
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Don't think ya did your homework on that comment cat.:p


The first major difference is the manufacturing process to produce a Dakota 76 receiver. Each receiver is machined from aircraft quality, pre-hardened bar stock. The steel used is a 4140 series hardened to a Rockwell of 28-32. Pre-hardened material is more difficult to work but it allows us to machine the receiver to exact tolerances and not lose those tolerances in subsequent heat treating. The first operation is to drill and ream the hole that will eventually be the raceway for the bolt. All subsequent machining operations are done with a mandrel inserted into the hole and machined between centers to insure an even distribution of metal around the receiver. Receiver threads are milled rather than tapped to insure that the threads are exactly on the bore line of the action. Each bolt is turned between centers from bar stock. The handles are machined and welded in place and the entire bolt is then heat treated. Afterwards the bolt body is ground between centers on a cylindrical grinder to very exact sizes. The internal threads in the bolt body are also cut on machining centers. All camming surfaces are cut with helixes and all threads bear evenly. Each bolt is individually lapped to its respective receiver. “Blue printing” is not necessary if the action is manufactured properly and no amount of blue printing can resurrect a poorly made action
 
Long Range Canuck said:
Don't think ya did your homework on that comment cat.:p


The first major difference is the manufacturing process to produce a Dakota 76 receiver. Each receiver is machined from aircraft quality, pre-hardened bar stock. The steel used is a 4140 series hardened to a Rockwell of 28-32. Pre-hardened material is more difficult to work but it allows us to machine the receiver to exact tolerances and not lose those tolerances in subsequent heat treating. The first operation is to drill and ream the hole that will eventually be the raceway for the bolt. All subsequent machining operations are done with a mandrel inserted into the hole and machined between centers to insure an even distribution of metal around the receiver. Receiver threads are milled rather than tapped to insure that the threads are exactly on the bore line of the action. Each bolt is turned between centers from bar stock. The handles are machined and welded in place and the entire bolt is then heat treated. Afterwards the bolt body is ground between centers on a cylindrical grinder to very exact sizes. The internal threads in the bolt body are also cut on machining centers. All camming surfaces are cut with helixes and all threads bear evenly. Each bolt is individually lapped to its respective receiver. “Blue printing” is not necessary if the action is manufactured properly and no amount of blue printing can resurrect a poorly made action
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Yup, got the Dakota mixed up with that other action designed around the M70 , whatis that one, the Montana? Idaho? something like that!:D
Doesn't make much difference, the Sako action in my basement is about thhe same weight....
Cat
 
The Nesika 300win action and 338LM action are the exact same dimension. It's the bolt face that makes them differ in some way.

Naturally my vote is for the 338Lapua. Cat made mention of the 250gr MK being equal in trajetory to the 6.5 I did a bit of comparing between the 250gr and the 300gr MK and at 1200yds the 250 is traveling about the same speed as the 300gr MK is at 1700yds. I guess the Summerland shoot will be the place for an interesting testing ground of distance for accurate loads. I know I'm pumped for a couple days of good weather.
 
Airborn_69 said:
Up to 1km, No spotter & silhouette paper target of course ;)
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You guy's are right. The .338 Laupua will out range and out punch a .300WM. What you are missing here and what is important is the intended use!! and for punching paper at 1000meters for the reasons I stated previously I think the better choice is the .300WM. If he was doubleing the range and the targets also included extended range hunting past 1000yrds I would definatly recomend the .338Lapua, but that wasnot part of the equation.:D
 
Glock-a-maniac said:
Naturally my vote is for the 338Lapua. Cat made mention of the 250gr MK being equal in trajetory to the 6.5 I did a bit of comparing between the 250gr and the 300gr MK and at 1200yds the 250 is traveling about the same speed as the 300gr MK is at 1700yds. I guess the Summerland shoot will be the place for an interesting testing ground of distance for accurate loads. I know I'm pumped for a couple days of good weather.
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Well we will see when your .338Lapua runs out of ponies and my .50BMG just starts to be competive. :p :slap: :wave: :D :sniper:
 
Long Range Canuck said:
Well we will see when your .338Lapua runs out of ponies and my .50BMG just starts to be competive. :p :slap: :wave: :D :sniper:
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When did that cannon come into thee equation??!!:confused:
That's it, I'm going back to 22lr smallbore shooting!
Course then , someone's gonna tell me the 22mag is better!:rolleyes:
Cat
 
Glock-a-maniac said:
The Nesika 300win action and 338LM action are the exact same dimension. It's the bolt face that makes them differ in some way.

Naturally my vote is for the 338Lapua. Cat made mention of the 250gr MK being equal in trajetory to the 6.5 I did a bit of comparing between the 250gr and the 300gr MK and at 1200yds the 250 is traveling about the same speed as the 300gr MK is at 1700yds. I guess the Summerland shoot will be the place for an interesting testing ground of distance for accurate loads. I know I'm pumped for a couple days of good weather.
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It never ceases to amaze me that when calibers are compared , always the preferred caliber either by the sales person or the proponent uses the optimum bullet and velocity for the cartridge of preference but a less than optimum bullet or test medium for the cartridge being bashed.
Barrett pulled this with the 416 versus 50, Cheytac with 50, now 6.5x284 vs 338LM.
The 6.5x284 is a phenomenal caliber, loaded with 142gr SMKs is truly hell on wheels for 1000 yard paperwork. The 338LM is also hell on wheels , but out a much further distance when loaded with the 300 gr SMKs. Yes I know the standard ammo offered from factory is 250 gr, but if we are going to compare fruits , let's make it both apples, or in this case optimum bullets for each caliber.
A 6.5x284 loaded with the 142 SMKs in my rifle develops 3000 FPS and at 1000 yards drops 281" but is only still travelling at 1723 fps.
My 338LM loaded with 300 gr SMKs also sends these bullets out the muzzle at 3000 FPS but at 1000 yards drops only 265" and still is travelling at 1886 FPS.
Given a windless day they are very comparable, but in any sort of wind the 300 gr bullet is far less suspetable to as much wind drift and has a far more predictable trajectory.
Now take that scenario out to 1500 yards and the numbers are really exagerated.
The 6.5 is going 1243 fps and has dropped 809"
the 338 is still going 1443 fps and has only dropped 725". That is 84" difference, and if bullet energy is of interest at the muzzle the 6.5 deveops 2837 ftlbs of energy the 338, 5994 ftlbs of energy at 1000 yards the 6.5 has 936 the 338 has 2369 and at 1500 yards it is 487 for the 6.5 and 1387 for the 338.
All this from the Sierra Infinity program for working with the known velocities from my 2 rifles.
KK
 
Long Range Canuck said:
You guy's are right. The .338 Laupua will out range and out punch a .300WM. What you are missing here and what is important is the intended use!! and for punching paper at 1000meters for the reasons I stated previously I think the better choice is the .300WM. If he was doubleing the range and the targets also included extended range hunting past 1000yrds I would definatly recomend the .338Lapua, but that wasnot part of the equation.:D
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I agree the 300 Win would be my choice for 1000 yard paperwork, granted more recoil than some other calibers that are also used to great results. But heavy bullets are easier to predict the trajectory of, which simply means it is easier to keep consistant groups at long range. With a well designed brake a 300 is less abusive than most smaller calibers. I have not found shooter fatigue any greater with the 300 than my 6.5x284, given the heavy barrel and good brake. Now without the brake this changes totally.
KK
 
kk, not saying your rifles are not producing this level of performance. We all know that each rifle is an entity onto itself. Some barrels respond to elevated pressures and can shoot fast hot loads very accurately. Other barrels are quite pokey.

However, from Lapua data and the orig design parameters, the Lapua is designed and rated for pushing the 250gr Scenar at 3000fps. The 300gr MK didn't exist at that time so wasn't even in the design thoughts.

There are rifles that do not come close to the 3000fps level WITH accuracy when dealing with the 300gr MK. Most report 2800fps and some slower ones around 2700fps. This especially from those who feed from the mag.

No different than the 308's that push a 155gr bullet to 3000fps when most don't go much over 2850fps (I even had one of those long PALMA barrels that shot great but SLOOOOOOW).

I know of at least one factory Savage rifle used in competition that is pushing 155gr Bergers to 3150fps out of a 30" factory barrel while shooting in the 2's and 3's!!! Hasn't blown himself up yet.

If we decide to hot rod the Lapua, then we can also hot rod the 6.5-284 and 'push' the 139gr bullet to 3100 to 3200fps.

There is no argument that the 300gr MK offers the highest BC of ANY bullet commonly available this side of the BMG. Run this bullet fast and the LR performance is outstanding with respect to wind drift and energy. Big bullets will always hit harder.

If someone wants big 338 performance, why use a 'tiny' Lapua? Why not go for the 338 Mystic/Tomahawk, or bigger 338-416Rigby improved/ 338WBY, or the biggest 338-408CheyTac? Except for the Mystic/Tomahawk which use the cheaper 300RUM case, all the others are about the same in cost for brass. Dies aren't that much different in cost either.

I own boomers in most common cals including the 300RUM and 338 Mystic and enjoy making expensive noise.

For paper punching, ft/lbs doesn't matter which is why my post suggested the inclusion of the 7mm (and other cals) in the debate. With the appropriate case, the ballistics will exceed the Lapua as far as you want to compare with way less cost and recoil. Does that matter? Up to the owner for sure.

Did he even know that the 180gr Berger has a BC of 0.684/695 and can easily be pushed over 3000fps?

There are so many new high BC bullets coming out that many shooters are not aware of. Maybe with that info, they may consider another cal as a better choice???????

Would a 0.615 BC 6mm poly tipped bullet easily going 3000fps from a 243AI make someone change their mind about a 6mm as an excellent 1000yd cal? Bullet to be released later this year.

Did the 208gr Amax with a 648BC (likely higher in real world shooting) come into the equation when those suggested the Lapua over the 300WM? Hard to say as this is a new bullet but I have been aware of its development for about 1yr.

LR shooting is really coming into its own. For just plinking and paper punching, even LR varminting, the choices are exploding in small cals. I wonder how much of this cutting edge info is known about in the general shooting public?

Jerry

PS many major 1000yd BR matches have been won and world records set by 7mm to 6mm cals shooting against the 30's and 338's in heavy/unlimited classes. In fact, one major match was cleaned up by a 6BR.
 
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