What is the Smallest Group size 5 shot!

guntech said:
I can count five in there... one in each corner and one right in the middle... ;)

Ivan... do not hold back - tell us how you really feel. :D
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Guntech,

once again i apologize for the rant...if i offended i am sorry, just sick and tired of people who take away from these forums rather than add to.

sincerely,

i.
 
Ivan Smythe said:
more and more i am beginning to think that it just isn't worth it, to post anything, anywhere on Gunnutz. a person will start a thread about a particular interest/subject/question or what-have-you, and without fail in less than ten responses the topic has been taken a completely absurd direction by people who want to argue, insult, nit-pick, and otherwise degrade the issue because they have no lives, and, in those lives lack validation. they come on these forums so that they can piss down the backs of other members, ANONYMOUSLY! how very brave of them. if a guy says that he shot a particular group with a particular rifle, THEN HE DID! he's provided a picture of the target, which is more proof that he did it than you have proof that he didn't. if people want to tell lies then that is their business, and at the end of the day they have to live with that. this may come as a big surprise to you people but we are supposed to as a community support each other and collectively improve our lot. i am sincerely sorry for this rant, but i WANT to continue to enjoy these forums AND be a constructive part of them, so for God's sake, stop your pissin' and moanin' and if you don't have something useful/respectful to say then KEEP YOUR F#$%ING mouth shut.
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I agree, Some time it seem like a wasted of time to posted something you done on the range, but don't let any of these guy piss you off or offended you in anyway.

That a few very serious rifles you got there!
 
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I've shot some spectacular groups occasionally with hunting rifles, and I do have 3 or 4 hunting rifles that are consistently very accurate, but any factory hunting rifle that averages ¾moa for 3-shot groups at 100 meters is a very accurate one, and should be kept in your safe forever. As some have commented, a one-time beauty group is good, but tells us very little in the overall picture. My 700 SSDM 30-06 is one of the most consistent factory sporters I have ever owned, and will shoot all weights from 150-200 grains equally well. A true gem!! Here's some examples. Eagleye.
1320030-06_Accubond_group.jpg

1320030-06_200_Part_Group_100M.jpg

1320030-06_N160_165P_Group.jpg

30-06165Partitiongroup100M.jpg


Another delightful rifle to shoot is my M700 Classic in 300 Savage. It absolutely loves the 150 Partition and Reloder 15!
300SavageGroup200MetersRL15.jpg

13200300_Savage_Group_100_yds.jpg
This group is quite a bit better than this rifle will average, of course!
13200300_Savage_Group_copy.jpg
 
My smallest was with my biggest, go figger.
.076" 6 shot group.
Load used, 205 gr of H5010 and a 647 gr pulled M33 bullet, at 100 M during load testing.
Yes, I kept that load.

M.
 
Ice-Pick; That has to be a 50 BMG by the specs you stated!! Very impressive for a big boomer. My best 10 shot group was fired from my 1000 yard rifle, a Bull Barrelled [Krieger] 260 Ackley improved on a tweaked 40X action, using the 139 grain Lapua and Vihtavuori N160. The groups was shot at 200 meters and measures a mere .127" I also shot a 5-shot 100 meter group with this rifle that measures .077, so it likes to shoot if I do my part. Regards, Eagleye.
 
Leeper said:
A single five shot group fired with no witnesses means just slightly more than nothing. If the subsequent group is ten times larger, it means even less. If, during the life of the rifle, the group is never duplicated, it has been demonstrated to be a fluke. I have fired a sub 1/2 inch group from a Lee Enfield. I have done the same from a 308 Norma hunting rifle. In neither case was I ever able to duplicate the feat. They were flukes.
My best group fired in registered competition was a .089. This was fired from a rifle which regularily shot around the .200 mark. It was a fluke. My best ever group fired in practice was a .021 from a 223 with which I never won a damn thing! Another fluke. Enjoy your occasional fluke groups but don't give them too much weight. Regards, Bill.
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I have really appreciated your comments over the past however many months Bill, and learned from them too. I think you are concerned that a person will generalize from one group and think it has some broader meaning. All I can say is that experience is a great teacher and, if they do generalize in this way, their experiences on subsequent occasions will teach them differently in quick order, providing they have any smarts at all. In fact your last sentence actually says it all in this regard. Let's just agree that the more samples you do (or the larger sample you have), the more accurate your estimation is. Most guys shooting today know little about this technical problem, including many br types, though many guys have a rough feel for the issue. I asked a question a long time ago that was skipped over and that was: "Which sample size is the best estimator or your rifle's performance?" This is not a trivial question and there hasn't been an acceptable answer on any post I have found here. The answer likely depends on the application you are intending to use the rifle for, among other things, as well as some powerful statistical rules concerning variation and a list of other considerations. Personally I have sampled my hunting rifle by locating the position of the first shot, shot after variable periods of time (out to a week or so, without cleaning. I went up to 8 shots before quitting. Occasionally I superimpose a few first shots to see if anything has changed. I have noticed fewer changes over long periods of time since de-stressing my scope. The rifle shoots within a MOA easily under these conditions and this is far beyond anything necessary, practically speaking, for the hunting I do. A br type probably wouldn't think of testing his rifle this way for what he is doing, though undoubtedly many would understand the thought behind what I am doing, especially the hunters in the crowd. I have chosen my approach, learned in this instance from other, more experienced men, because it seems to be the pattern that fits my hunting experiences (first shot counts, fouled bore and who knows how long between shots). Yes, I have tested 5 shot groups because I was curious how long the rifle would hold its performance. In other words, the application I am going to use the rifle for determines how I test. Is it perfect? Nope.
What concerns me is that you may be in danger of having people believe that you think the .089 group is less meaningful than some other single group by calling it a fluke (all this is is a low probability event). In fact, on rational grounds, that single group is as meaningful as any other single group you have shot and probably more enjoyable than most. You are absolutely correct that it doesn't mean any more than anything else in the big spectrum of things (unless you shot it in competition :D). But the universe does strike a single harmonius note on these occasions. Who knows why? So relax and enjoy it Bill, it only comes around once in awhile, and the guy that shoots it probably wins the match. Respectfully, fred
 
Lest we forget the threadstarter question. Best group shot, no more no less, witnessed or not. A tiny little group is a thrilling thing so brag if you want. I once shot a coyote on the run at about 3/4 mile off a moving tractor aiming a rusty old Cooey #39 with one hand at what had to be near a 45 degree angle. Repeatable, not in a kazillion years. An indication of mine or the rifles accuracy? Betting odds on a snowball fight in hell would be more accurate. All that showed was the tonnage of horshoes up my ying yang that day and how many the coyote didnt have. Good shot none the less especially for a 9 year old.
 
Eagleye said:
I've shot some spectacular groups occasionally with hunting rifles, and I do have 3 or 4 hunting rifles that are consistently very accurate, but any factory hunting rifle that averages ¾moa for 3-shot groups at 100 meters is a very accurate one, and should be kept in your safe forever. As some have commented, a one-time beauty group is good, but tells us very little in the overall picture. My 700 SSDM 30-06 is one of the most consistent factory sporters I have ever owned, and will shoot all weights from 150-200 grains equally well. A true gem!! Here's some examples. Eagleye.
1320030-06_Accubond_group.jpg

1320030-06_200_Part_Group_100M.jpg

1320030-06_N160_165P_Group.jpg

30-06165Partitiongroup100M.jpg


Another delightful rifle to shoot is my M700 Classic in 300 Savage. It absolutely loves the 150 Partition and Reloder 15!
300SavageGroup200MetersRL15.jpg

13200300_Savage_Group_100_yds.jpg
This group is quite a bit better than this rifle will average, of course!
13200300_Savage_Group_copy.jpg
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Nice shooting Eagleye, and thanks for sharing the targets with us. The best I've done is with my Savage 112BVSS in 25-06. I shot a three shot group of 0.486" shot at 185 yards. I have a scan of the target with the reload info that I'd like to post but sadly, I still haven't figured out the posting 'thing'.:redface:One of these days.
 
while i sincerely appreciate all of the technical/scientific/statistical information that has been brought into this thread i once again think that we are moving away from the spirit of this thread which is groups that made that shooter proud and which also become "the reason for shooting". he/she/we continue to aspire to duplicate, or even better that group. fluke or not.
in the book Competitive Shooting by A.A. Yur'yev(translated from the russian) the author speaks of only knowing the true mean accuracy potential of a particular rifle and shooter by measuring 1000 rounds shot. so if you really want to get serious about it then don't even bother posting unless you have shot a 1000 rd. group! *please read the sarcasm in that last statement*
my point is this, if a person were to go to the range only once in their life, and on that singular occasion, were to shoot a single 5 rd group at 100 metres that measured 0.25", and photographed that target, and posted it here, then no one, including me, would have any obligation to say anything other than "WOW, that was a great group, you must be very proud".
they don't need to hear your reasoning for why it was probably a statistical fluke, because if that is all you have to offer then they will not want to share their accomplishments(which would diminish these forums) or worse will no longer want to shoot(which would diminish our sport/community).

PS i find that the more i shoot, the flukier i get : ).
 
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Last time out my .308 shot .25" - .75" groups all day at 100 metres.

Hart barrel
remington brass
46 gr varget
155 gr HPBT Palma MatchKing
2.80" OAL
20 year old bausch & lomb 12-32x scope.
 
Ivan's got a point....in the army we use a 20 Rd group initially to determine the shooter's grouping potential, because otherwise as he said you would have to fire thousands of rounds to TRULY determine the rifle/shooter's accuracy potential. This is not feasible.....and as he said the nature of this forum is to have fun and show your best groups...who cares if you can't duplicate them ever again!...that can be for another forum :)
 
watsknew said:
Ivan's got a point....in the army we use a 20 Rd group initially to determine the shooter's grouping potential, because otherwise as he said you would have to fire thousands of rounds to TRULY determine the rifle/shooter's accuracy potential. This is not feasible.....and as he said the nature of this forum is to have fun and show your best groups...who cares if you can't duplicate them ever again!...that can be for another forum :)
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True, sort of but you're comparing apples & oranges. An army 6x6 and a XKE Jag will both go down the road, both have rubber tires but in comparison, their abilities or design functions, "apples & oranges".
 
I shot this yesterday out of my 700police...I always have one flyer in every 5 shot group, but they were all pretty much like this!
This was my best....168gr SMK,43 gr IMR4064, Lapua Brass, CCI BR primers!
It measures .607
phantomflashhiderandtarget004.jpg
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