What is this SMLE sight? (Updated on page 2)

Sardaukar

Sardaukar

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I am looking for a No1Mk3 so that my P07 bayonet won't feel so alone, and I came across this one, 1942, with a sight that the seller says is Australian and super rare.

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Sorry for the small pics, but that's what I'm working with.
I'm sure some of you guys know all about it!
 
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There aren't exactly thousands of them around but they aren't especially rare either.

That sight is worth about $300. The rifle is most likely a commercial SMLE rather than a military issue. It's hard to tell from the pics.
 
Huh, I didn't know they made commercial SMLEs during WWII. Who made them?

Do you know what the exact name of that sight is, who made it? Any opinion on it?

Thanks
 
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I have a 1943 No1MkIII* that a previous owner fitted with a nice Lyman rear sight. My guess would be that it's one of those kind of deals.

The cocking knob and trigger also look strange to me. I had never heard of a "commercial" Enfield before. I'm not saying they don't exist.

If you were looking for something a little more common [and probably cheaper if it's "super rare"], there was one or two No1MkIII's in the EE the last time I looked.
 
Yeah, I was also curious about the cocking knob but now that you mention it the trigger is also intriguing.

It is local and seems to be very reasonably priced, but I won't bother the seller about it until after Christmas, so I won't have more info for a few days.
 
The sight itself is a target sight, what make and so forth I don't know.

Parker-Hale was the most common target sight on these rifles, but there were many others as well.

There WERE commercial SMLEs manufactured for many years, including 10,000 for the Kingdom of Siam (1920), 22,000 for the Kingdom of Iraq (1936-38), a few very small contracts and commercial hunting and target rifles numbering in the thousands in the period 1907 and onward. Some of these are STILL shooting wonderful targets.

The strange-looking cocking-iece on this rifle is the CORRECT cocking-piece for the SMLE Mark III rifle, approved in 1907 and used whenever possible until the end of production. It's just that more than 90% of rifles were made in war-time, so generally you see the SUBSTITUTE cocking-piece with the straight sides and finger-grooves. At ne point during War wo, there was actually a straight-sided cocking-piec made with NO finger grooves: very difficult to work with if the hands were cold and so replaced as quickly as possible once it was realised that it was a disaster waiting to happen.

The rifle looks a little beaten-about, moreso than a careful target shooter would alow it to get. It is possible that the RIFLE is 1942 and the SIGHT is commercial: much more common scenario!

About commercial riles: the private factories were in business to make rifles and trade them for money. Only the Goernment factory was otherwis, and even they made some commercials. As to the SMLE, it was definitely not a 'wanted' rifle during the Second War even though it was certainly NEEDED. BSA kept the plant tooled up and ready to run from the end of War One to after the Battle of France, without getting an order for one single rifle from the British Government. The Government only screamed for rifles AFTER the pullout at Dunkirk.

Rememer also that British officers had to supply their own kit, including weapons, sp there must have been some commercial rifles, at least, available. Well-financed officers would deal with Holland and Holland or one of the other London gunmakers, those not so rich might well have dealt with W.W. Greener; both sold BSA-manufactured SMLEs with their own name on them. If I had been running BSA, I think I would have made as many commercial-grade rifles as the trade woud bear.
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SMLEs were sold commercially to civilian buyers.
I have a commercial BSA, Martin Adjusted, which was used for target shooting.
The sight is commercial. There were quite a variety of these made, Parker Hales are the most common but there are many others.
Whether the rifle was actually used for target shooting, or whether some just added a target sight to the rifle, who knows? If the rifle's bedding has been reworked, or if there are any other clues suggesting accuracy refinements, then the rifle was used for competition. Target SMLEs were generally worked over to try to achieve better results.
Something does look odd about the trigger and guard.
 
Commercial SMLE Rifles

Yes, there were Commercial SMLE rifles made. BSA was probably the largest producer of them. I have a 1939 BSA Commercial.

As SMELLIE mentioned, Officers were expected to buy and supply their own kit, including small arms. You can find many fine binoculars (made by Ross of London, etc) that are usually 8X power. Sidearms were also purchased, and you can find them with the Owner's name engraved on them, particularly some Enfield revolvers for Royal Air Force officers.

Getting back to the SMLE and similar rifles. Officers bound for India Service brought along several rifles and shotguns. After all, it was a Status symbol.

You will find older Lee Enfields marked with the "Lee Speed Patent" on the receiver. Probably one of the best indications of a Commercial Lee Enfield is the LACK of the CROWN on the butt socket that indicated that the rifle was the property of the King (Government).

Commercial Lee Enfields were given as prizes at major shooting events. They were even engraved with the winner's name on the receiver ring. Also, firms like Fulton in England accurized some of these by putting thin strips of Cork in the barrel channel to dampen the vibration. The British word for accurizing is "Regulate", and you will see stamped on these rifles the magic words "Regulated By ######X."

The sight could be an Australian "Central" sight.

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Its not like the other Centrals I have seen; have a few. It does look as if it mounts on a plate, the way a Central does, although I don't think it is a Central plate. The sight and base should have maker's marks.
Seeing as the rifle is for sale, and you are thinking about it, you might want to consider: If there are no signs that the rifle was reworked for target shooting, you are buying a rifle, and a sight, not a target rifle with sight.
Maybe the sight alone could bring $300, maybe half that. A respectable, but not special SMLE these days goes for what? $250 -$500, depending?
If you want a representative service rifle, do you want to pay for the sight as well?
 
Sardaukar said:
Huh, I didn't know they made commercial SMLEs during WWII. Who made them?

Do you know what the exact name of that sight is, who made it? Any opinion on it?

They didn't make commercial SMLE's in WW2. However many privately owned target rifles were requisitioned by the government, but not one dated 1942 (I assume that you said the rifle was made then)

Saying that, the target sight could have been fitted at any time after the war.
Going by the way the elevation scale is fitted it looks like a "Premier"
Click to expand...
 
Thanks a lot gentlemen. I will contact the seller on the other side of Christmas and I will come back with more info.
 
Australian Sight

The sight on this rifle is unusual in that it is made almost entirely of stamped and bent pieces. It is known under the name "Premier" and is illustrated in Edna Rosalind Parker (daughter of A.J. Parker) book "A Century of Sights and Sighting Aids.

Hope this helps........

Cheers,

B

Sight.jpg
 
Yup, that's the one. Should I really be surprised that John Sukey was right?!

edit: Thanks for the cocking piece info Smellie. As for the rifle looking beat up, I believe it's the crappy picture's fault. If I'm right you will hear more about it, if i'm not, I won't buy it and this thead will sink into the depths of CGN.

dammit, why is Christmas getting in the way of me buying guns?
 
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One should NEVER be surprised that John Sukey is right.

Glad I could help a bit.

It's that time of year again (4 days into Saturnalia, 4 days after Winterset) so I would like to wish you.... and everyone else on CGN..... what my mother used to wish people: a happy Christmas and a very merry New Year!

Enjoy, all.
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You give me too much credit. I just happen to have Edna Parker's book
A Century of Sights and Sighting Aids.

Speaking of odd things, How many of you folks know what a ventometer is?
 
Not really LOL.
Before the advent of windage adjustable sights in matches for military rifles, it was a micrometer device that was used to mark windage adjustments on military sights with a white pencil. ie; you checked the placement of the shot, adjusted the ventometer for windage, placed it on the sight and marked the adjustment. You then removed it before firing. I have one, but never used it for anything
 
Well guys, I got it.

To be fair, it's the first time I buy a gun that I think is pure crap!

The previous owner had, lets put it that way, very peculiar tastes in milsurp. He sanded it down, varnished it, and re-blued the whole thing himself. He also polished the buttplate. The worst thing is he also did it to a perfectly good post-war Garand.

It's a 1942 'GRI' Indian SMLE. There are not 2 numbers on it that match. The bore is decent but I really am not expecting much from it.
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BUT, I got the sight, and it is pretty sweet. The screw on the scale is not really as damaged as the pic shows it.
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I'm really looking forward to seeing what I can do with it. In itself, the sight and the gun were not enough to make this a good deal. Until the guy told me that he had some ammo that he would not need anymore and that it was included in the deal. And some 180g 30-06 that he was afraid would hurt his refurbished-at-home Garand. 60 rounds of each. Now it's starting to sound like a good deal. He goes to get the ammo and some of it caught my eye:

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Some of it on stripper clips, FMJ marked 1944 DI Z (or D│Z)
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and some in paper wrapping, marked

CARTRIGES
S.A. BALL
.303 Inch
CORDITE
25│2│10
Mark IV C broad arrow over DA

Over it is printed:

Re-inspected
2, 8 .26 CIA

FOR MACHINE GUN PRACTICE ONLY

It's rounded tip and marked DA 01 2 C broad arrow VI:
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I'd be really interested to know what the knoledgeable folks around here have to say about that stuff, especially the 'machine gun ammo'!

All in all, a new gun with a peculiar sight, wartime Canadian marked ammo, it was a good deal. And my P07 C broad arrow marked bayonet finally has a friend to play with!
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That's what I figured.

Would it go well through a Lee Enfield? Is cordite corrosive?

I'd like to learn more about the markings on that brass, especially since it is /C\ marked.
 
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