What kills?

Red, that was a really great piece. The logic is difficult to fault, and you write particularly well. I read it not once but a number of times, and I'll read a few more times yet.

I've got some ideas, but I'll have to wait until I have more time to respond, stay tuned.
 
What kills.

Lots of cyber ink used on this topic. To me it's really quite easy, if i want the best expanding hunting bullet currently readily available i use the Barnes ttsx boat tail.

If i want to shoot thru a pinetree and kill the critter behind it, i use the same bullet seated tip down and deep in the case neck. It's a ready made flat nose solid.

So to answer the OP'S question, what kills. I do.:D
 
I thought Red's post was really good as well, and one of the lightbulbs that flashed on in my mind as I read his post was the notion of variable sectional density as a bullet expands. Specifically relating to an expanding barnes ### bullet, the light bulb was that not only does sectional density likely decreases drastically as the bullet travels through the target media, but it might increase for a short period of time too. It's possible that as the bullet deforms it could have greatest cross-sectional area at some midpoint in it's expansion, and it's diameter is then reduced somewhat as the bullet continues to deform (imagine the petals peeling back). At the point where the cross sectional area is greatest (and the sectional density is lowest) is where the bullet loses energy the fastest as the target media resistance is at this point the greatest.

Velocity will play a big roll with this "variable sectional density" notion too...you can see that the faster moving barnes slug was subject to more deformation that the other two heavier slugs, suggesting that the slug was subject to a larger decelerating force.

I found a 165 grain .308 barnes ### that I shot and recovered from gelatin several years ago...if I get time this weekend I'll re-do the barnes bullet comparison photograph. The short summary is that while it exhibits roughly the same expanded diameter, the degree of deformation is definitely less than either of the 130gr or 150gr slugs pictured in my previous post.

Redlich said:
Unfortunately we never know exactly how deep the bullet will need to go to get there, or what bones/muscle it might need to drill through on its way!

This is pretty much parallel to much of my opinion on why penetration is important.

Redlich said:
As a final note, I respectfully disagree with the idea that an exit wound is important for killing game swiftly. Even if it does let more light in
There is way more than enough space inside the chest cavity for blood to flow and cause death. If you could somehow rupture an animals lungs with a high powered ghetto blaster pounding "In the Air Tonight" by Phil Collins, it would die just as quickly whether there was one hole in the chest, two holes, or no holes. There is no difference between bleeding externally and bleeding internally, except that it looks more impressive when it's coming out. In both cases it's still blood loss though. If you were trying to collapse an animals lungs by letting air into the chest that'd be another thing, but that's not even really a factor in death compared to the massive trauma/blood loss of perforated lungs.

I agree with much of what you've written here; for me the exit wound is in most cases (ie: where you get a well placed broadside shot to the boiler room) a byproduct of a deeply penetrating bullet. The previous quote I lifted from your excellent treatise sums it up well...deeper penetration can salvage a potentially bad outcome resulting from too much bone/muscle, etc etc getting in the way.

There are other situations where you might miss the boiler room completely but still intersect large blood vessels later on. It's happened to me once where I was in this same unfortunate (and avoidable by exercising better judgement and more focus) situation. I knew as soon as the hammer fell it was a bad shot, but by some luck and fortune the situation was saved by the bullet's deep penetration still managing to effect cutting of a major deep blood vessel after about 36 inches of penetration. That it was a nicely cut hole as compared to displaced tissue (as muscle and fatty tissue has somewhat of a plugging effect) also helped and I was grateful I was hunting with my new bullet and not the Barnes.

Anyway...this last example is hopefully an exception to most of the shots guys will be taking with their hunting rigs. While I have my own ideas of what is a good bullet for how I hunt, lost of different folks have lots of different ideas of what constitutes a good bullet, and fortunately we have lots of different bullets to choose from!

in closing, I've been greatly interested by other folks feedback in this thread and I appreciate the effort that went into spilling their "cyber ink". Thanks!

Cheers,

Brobee
 
Gave Red's bit a go over too, good points. I agree entirely about bleeding out internally, a human can nearly bleed out just inside the thigh alone.

"Nearly" bleed out just inside the thigh. Cut the femural artery and you've got seconds to plug it. I read of one instance of a moose badly hit with one arrow to the rear leg; if I recall correctly it dropped in about 10 seconds(?), which sounds about right.

While I agree that a good shot to the heart and or lungs may not need an exit wound to kill quickly, it sure doesn't hurt. And for someone like myself who couldn't track an overheating icecream truck through a mall, a few less seconds and better trail makes a difference.
 
An exit wound is not necessary to kill but I believe it is desirable for several reasons; first is that if you have to track the animal there is a lot more blood than if you just have an entrance wound. Secondly, while it is true that the animal will bleed out internally, the normally large exit wound introduces cold air into the body cavity, which brings down the core temperature and brings on the effects of shock more rapidly. The part we may not like to think about is pain. Most pain sensors are in or near the skin, and the pain that is caused by a large exit might be debilitating to some animals, causing them to give up and not travel so far.

Red, with respect to your contention that an X bullet would penetrate deeper if it retained a higher percentage of its original weight I think might bear some scrutiny. If the bullet retains 100% of its weight, the petals would remain intact and result in a larger frontal area, which might actually limit penetration. But what do the numbers suggest?

The general consensus is that the TSX is much more resilient to high velocity impacts than the older X bullets. Not only do the petals hang on better, but they do not fold down along the shank like the older X bullets do, and I have a few that I have now had the opportunity to weigh and measure; the average diameter is .785" for a .375/300 TSX. The retained weight is only 1 gr less than the original 300 grs, which is close enough to 100% retention for practical purposes. Running the numbers though, I see that the SD of the expanded TSX is .06932, well ahead of the 380's SD of .06139. When one considers the higher impact velocity, the penetration of this bullet will be pretty impressive, but it's actual wound volume is significantly smaller. But for the sake of comparison, if we multiply the respective expanded SDs by their impact velocity, we find that the 300 gr X has the potential to penetrate about 22% deeper than the 380, which under some circumstances might make it a better choice, particularly if the range is on the long side where the 380 doesn't fully expand, thus loosing wound volume while the TSX still does. Clearly the 380 is designed as a close range thumper while the TSX is a better general purpose hunting bullet. Although I don't have any 270 gr TSXs to measure, we can assume that it too would loose little weight, and expand to the same diameter as the 300. Thus the SD would be about .06236 which when multiplied by an impact velocity of 2850, the penetration is 99% of the 300s, so again my original contention that velocity makes up for mass comes back into play.

Is then Brobee's ballistic gel test indicating that the heavier bullet has greater penetration, supported by the numbers? If the rate of expansion is equal, a .308 TSX will expand to approximately .645." A 130 gr bullet expanded to .645 has a SD of .0446 and the 150 has a SD of .0515. Multiplying by their respective velocity of 2800 and 2600, we see that the 150 gr bullet should have a penetration advantage of about 7%, which is approximately 2" supporting his observation. What then do we conclude?
 
I think any animal shot so that the chest wound will allow air in to lower the body temperature and induce shock will be dead LONG before body temperature changes. Temperature changes are the least likely effect of a through and through chest shot.

There are two reasons for complete penetration that matter to me. One is that it proves I got enough penetration. The second is the resulting blood trail. The only thing that kills is cessation of brain activity. That is the definition of death. Whether it happens from blood loss and resulting lack of oxygen to the brain, or from physical destruction of the brain itself, it is brain death that is the final measure.

Is then Brobee's ballistic gel test indicating that the heavier bullet has greater penetration, supported by the numbers? If the rate of expansion is equal, a .308 TSX will expand to approximately .645." A 130 gr bullet expanded to .645 has a SD of .0446 and the 150 has a SD of .0515. Multiplying by their respective velocity of 2800 and 2600, we see that the 150 gr bullet should have a penetration advantage of about 7%, which is approximately 2" supporting his observation. What then do we conclude?

We can only conclude that such careful analysis and math proves almost nothing that can effectively predict field results from such "differences". I think you can conclude that, if one used field results as a measure, a lifetime of shooting things would not reveal any difference in performance. It's all just measurebating.
 
. . . We can only conclude that such careful analysis and math proves almost nothing that can effectively predict field results from such "differences". I think you can conclude that, if one used field results as a measure, a lifetime of shooting things would not reveal any difference in performance. It's all just measurebating.

Bingo, attempting to mathematically predict an animal's demise is all but impossible. Some like caribou die easy, while others like "African Buffalo have to be convinced that they have undergone a change in status." A buffalo shot high in the lungs that makes it to cover, will provide you with an exciting story to tell.
 
Boomer,

I slept on what I wrote yesterday, and I realized that I said something that wasn't correct. This is it:

"In general one bullet will lose energy on impact more quickly than another because it has a LOWER sectional density (either pre or post mushroom doesn't matter, it is lower in both cases). In other words, it has a bigger frontal area to slow it down, and the force exerted on the medium while being slowed at a faster rate than a dense bullet makes a bigger cavity."

That's not actually true, although if we're going under the assumption of the same caliber, bullet shape and muzzle energy, the results of going under this assumption are the same as what really happens. I was mulling it over though, and I realized that there is no reason why a lighter bullet BECAUSE OF IT'S WEIGHT will decelerate at a greater pace than a heavier bullet. I then remembered that it's not the weight of the bullet that determines the rate of deceleration, it's the VELOCITY (assuming the same bullet shape).

If you wiki how drag works you can see that an object moving through a fluid such as water or air is met with greater resistance the faster it's going and less resistance as its velocity decreases. This is why a faster bullet decelerates more and loses energy more quickly than a slower bullet of the same kinetic energy. This effect doesn't apply to passing through solid things like bone, but it does in air, water, or the "squishy" parts of an animals insides like fat, blood, etc, as well as ballistic gelatin.

It's the same as jumping into water. If you jump off a 3 foot diving board, hitting the water doesn't hurt... but if you jump off a 100 foot cliff, you're hitting the water with enough velocity that the resistance you encounter (which is greater with a higher velocity impact) is enough to hurt, and potentially injure or kill. At high speed, hitting the water feels almost like hitting cement.

Bullets experience the same thing moving through fluids, so if you have a faster bullet it is having to overcome more force to penetrate, as can be seen by the expended energy making a big stretch cavity, and faster bullets exhibiting more mushrooming/deformation which as Brobee said indicates more force was opposing its movement.

And so THIS is where sectional density comes into play with momentum. If a lighter bullet is relying on its velocity to penetrate deeply, it is being opposed by greater drag until it slows down to the speed of a slower bullet. However, since it needed that velocity to keep its energy, the lighter bullet now possesses less total momentum having been slowed more drastically.

A heavier bullet with the same impact energy, however, starts off meeting relatively less opposing force during penetration, as can be seen by less dramatic mushrooming and a smaller stretch cavity because it is losing less energy and decelerating at a slower rate. Since it is relying more on its mass to retain energy, it still has energy to spare for deeper penetration.

To sum up, a faster bullet is decelerated more quickly, so it is forced to give up its kinetic energy more quickly than a slower heavier bullet.

Where things really start looking cool is when you compare bullets of the same frontal area but where one is BOTH heavier AND faster, such as a 30 cal 150gr out of a 30-30 vs a 30 cal 180 gr out of a 300 win mag. In this case the 300 win mag will hit at a higher velocity AND a higher total energy, and it will decelerate more rapidly at first than the 30-30, spending some of its energy on a stretch cavity. However, since it started off with more total energy it will still have more to spare once it decelerates to the speed of the 30-30, because of its greater mass. So as long as the bullets both expand in the same way (aka to the same diameter with full weight retention) the 300 win mag should do more damage both in the stretch cavity AND penetration departments... at the expense of greater recoil to give it more total energy.

Makes sense to me!

Red

p.s. yeah I'm definitely not interested in trying to come up with a formula to predict the "killing power" of bullets, I just like figuring out how they work and why.
 
Red, drag models overlook the force of supercavitation which occurs when a high velocity object moves through a fluid medium. While there is enough velocity to sustain a gas bubble around the bullet, there is no drag exerted directly on the bullet by the surrounding fluid or tissue, because the soft tissue and fluid are violently displaced by the gas bubble and neither actually touches the bullet until the velocity decays to the extent that the gas bubble ceases to envelop it. The higher the velocity, the greater the size of the bubble, relative to the shape of the bullet. This would account for Brobee's observation that the bullet with the faster impact velocity created a larger wound diameter and here is where the diameter and shape of the bullet play a role in the wound diameter. Provided that a bullet's entire energy can be absorbed by the target without exiting, the actual wound volume would not change with the design of the bullet, only the shape and depth of the wound are impacted. Again, the effects of supercavitation only apply with the passage of the bullet through soft tissue, and the bullet comes into direct contact with any bone it must penetrate, so drag applies. Still, there must be great resistance to the bullet's forward motion or the velocity would not drop off in a fluid medium any faster than it would in air. Perhaps then it would be like attempting to push a balloon through the water; the density and incompressibility of the water resists the forward motion of the gas bubble, which in turn indirectly slows the bullet.

When a bullet mushrooms in the tissue of a big game animal, the rate of expansion is determined by the design and construction of the bullet. The TSX and the Rhino bullets are similar to the extent that both have pleated jackets that are designed to fold back along predetermined lines, and it is hydraulic energy that accomplishes the task rather than simply bumping into a target of greater density.
DSC_0009-1.jpg

In fact, when fired into a dry medium, the Rhino does not expand at all, it simply bends and hooks around.
DSC_0011.jpg

This contrasts with lead core bullets using a tapered jacket to control the rapidity of expansion, or the dual core type bullets, and display some degree of expansion regardless of the medium they impact. Having said that, the wound volume of any given bullet of a certain weight and impact velocity, for example any 180 gr bullet impacting at 2500 fps, will be the same, regardless of the caliber or construction of that bullet, lethality is however another matter.

Some years ago, I was seal hunting with my trusty M-17 .30/06. Unfortunately for the seal in question, I made several bad decisions starting with a poor bullet choice. The Speer 130 gr hollow-points were wonderfully accurate in that rifle, with groups averaging 5/8ths of an inch. Now my intention was to make a head shot, because if you shoot a seal in the body, more often as not it is able to kick down into it's hole and is lost. This predetermination for making a head shot is why I was overly concerned about accuracy; a seal's head is a pretty small target. I was laying in some pressure ice watching a seal that was facing directly away from me. The seal would raise his head to look around briefly, then drop it back down again, before I was able to shoot. Then for quite some time he would not lift his head above the line of his back. Finally, I was going to have to shoot or forget it because lying on the ice was cooling me off and it wouldn't be long before I would start to shiver. This is where I made my second mistake. I decided I would attempt a body shot, with the idea that the bullet would break the spine and punch through to the chest. It seemed reasonable to me that with a severed spine, the seal would be unable to get into its hole. I was in a good solid position, aimed carefully, and pressed the trigger. The rifle boomed, and the seal was gone down it's hole faster than you could believe. Well, that's that I thought, stood up and prepared to return to the snowmobile, when all of a sudden the seal jumped back up on the ice. So I returned to my jack-ass prone position and started pounding him, the 5th or 6th shot killed him, with a hit in the neck. As I shot he was pulling himself around on his front flippers making a large red circle on the ice. My pal and I made a pretty good attempt of performing an autopsy. The initial shot was farther back than I had anticipated, I should have held higher for the range. Where the bullet hit bone, the bone was disintegrated and a large fist sized wound flecked with bullet metal remained, but there was no penetration beyond the bone. We determined that after the first shot he realized he couldn't propel himself in the water and would drown if he stayed submerged, so he came back up. Had I had access to .308/130 gr TSXs, the results would have been better for the seal and for me, but this was before Randy Brooks had made X bullets a commercial reality. So for those who think that accuracy is the overriding concern when choosing a big game bullet, or that one bullet is the same as another, take heed.
 
Originally Posted by Redlich
As a final note, I respectfully disagree with the idea that an exit wound is important for killing game swiftly. Even if it does let more light in
There is way more than enough space inside the chest cavity for blood to flow and cause death. If you could somehow rupture an animals lungs with a high powered ghetto blaster pounding "In the Air Tonight" by Phil Collins, it would die just as quickly whether there was one hole in the chest, two holes, or no holes. There is no difference between bleeding externally and bleeding internally, except that it looks more impressive when it's coming out. In both cases it's still blood loss though. If you were trying to collapse an animals lungs by letting air into the chest that'd be another thing, but that's not even really a factor in death compared to the massive trauma/blood loss of perforated lungs.


A exit wound, in and of itself will add to killing power. The problem is, what had to be traded for it? If you want or need to shoot through huge animals or ordinary sized animals lengthwise, a narrower, deeper wound channel 4-8 feet long is the ticket. If you got your opportunity on a broadside animal, then a huge diameter wound channel a foot or so deep will serve you better. There's the crux of the problem, the choice is easy in those narrowly defined circumstances, but a compromise somewhere in the middle would be better much of the time.

Back to exit wounds, haveing 2 sucking chest wounds are better than one on injured but still functioning lungs. If the lungs are reduced to a pail of blood and a windpipe the difference is academic.
Trailing blood is good, not needing a blood trail is better. I've spent most of my hunting career with bullets that almost always exit, a few hundred BG animals of my own. That was the compromise that I felt I could live with, exiting bullets and lots of gun. Haveing said that, I can't deny that the animals that met their end with softer bullets that gave huge wounds hit the ground faster even if there wasn't an exit. Or perhaps because there wasn't an exit.

Weight retention, pure penetration or appearance of the expanded bullet can be useful information, or the most over emphased crap out there. Animals don't weigh bullets to determine whether they are dead or not. A deadly looking 4 petal X mushroom has yet to scare anything to death. High retained weight may or may not lead to more penetration. The ability to shoot through 3 animals probably won't lead to the speedy demise of one. A bullet that expands to a larger diameter and stays together may make a smaller wound channel than one that partially disintegrates.

About only thing that matters is how much damage is done to the animals vital systems and and how soon the animal is going to need that function. A punctured lung will be lead to the animal drowning in his own blood, or maybe it will collapse. A liquified lung will fail to provide oxygen to the brain sooner. A bullet in the brain will render it academic.

The only other thing that matters is which side the sun is shineing on.
 
I've changed my mind, having only an entry wound limits your options to only shooting with the sun at your back, while an exit wound lets you shoot towards the sun too. Gotta make sure the light gets in! :)
 
Boomer, thanks for the posts, I've really enjoyed this thread and you put alot of thought and time into it. Dogleg's right on that what matters most is how much damage can be done to the vitals, and that depends on the animal and the shot placement/angle so you need to compromise.

I don't think that whether there is an air bubble around the bullet or not fundamentally changes that a faster bullet experiences more deceleration than a slower bullet of the same energy. We agree that a faster one will show a wider cavity on first entry than a slower one, and the bullet is the only source of energy to do that, so it must be losing energy more quickly in order to do more damage that way. Whether the bullet is pushing against tissue, or it's pushing against an air bubble that is pushing against tissue doesn't change the effect, I don't believe.

I didn't know that about the Rhino and TSX bullets expanding from fluid impact, interesting.
 
One more point on the exit vs. no-exit debate...

Over and above the obvious that more blood = easier tracking, one of the key reasons for wanting an nice, large exit wound on a chest-hit animal is to de-pressurize the chest cavity.

Lungs inflate/deflate in response to changes in internal/external pressure within the controlled and sealed environment of the chest cavity above the diaphram. It's a slick design, this respiration thing -- but it can no longer work when the air pressure in the chest cavity is suddenly equalized to the ambient environment. Once the pressure gradient no longer exists, the lungs can no longer function *even if they were otherwise unharmed by the passage of the bullet*. In short, the lungs collapse. And then we're back to that no-oxygen to the brain thing...
 
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I've changed my mind, having only an entry wound limits your options to only shooting with the sun at your back, while an exit wound lets you shoot towards the sun too. Gotta make sure the light gets in! :)

I could probably think of a few other reasons for not wanting to hunt, stare, or shoot into the sun, but I only need one and I like to keep things simple.
 
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