What leads local deer to have small racks?

vpsalin

vpsalin

CGN Regular
Rating - 100%
18   0   0
What leads local deer to having routinely smaller racks? Is it the nutrition, the local genetics (inbreeding), the geography, what is it?

In our deer camp, we have terrific doe hunting opportunities but the local bucks tend to be smaller. We sometimes stumble upon larger bucks but they are not locals, they never know where the blinds or traps lay and they run around carelessly. The local bucks are smaller 180lbs ish, have smaller racks and are slightly more skiddish.

PICT0287.jpg
 
iron cat said:
According to biologists like the late Dr. Val Geist rack size is a combination of food , buck / doe ratio and genes .
Cat
Click to expand...

You forgot to mention regulations...if you constantly remove 4 point mule bucks, large frame 3 points will be doing increased gen transfer.
 
Like all phenotypic expressions it’s a combination of environment (nutrition) and genetics. Like humans the environment and nutritional profile of the mother during gestation are very important

* adjusts glasses *

You forgot to mention regulations...if you constantly remove 4 point mule bucks, large frame 3 points will be doing increased gen transfer.
Click to expand...

This hinges on the assumption that the 4 point rack is solely the result of environmental factors, I’m sure selection can play a role as it always does but the real world results of it are more complex than punnet squares would lead you to believe
 
I'm not a scientist but that to me just looks like a younger deer. Genetics plays a big part, as would nutrition. Older deer are usually bigger bodied, sagging belly, white on the face.
 
Called in a moose to a tree stand in about 2005. When he answered it was a deep grunt of an older bull. When he stepped out it was obvious he was a mature animal. Hanging he was about 600 pounds. One our biggest at that time. He had one of the smallest racks of all the mature moose we’ve ever taken. Food, genetics??? Who knows. Shot a bull out a tree stand there this year. Massive animal. Weighed a front quarter just out of curiosity, 225 pounds. Would have run 50 inches if not for busted points from scrapping, with good paddles. Same spot, 16 years later.
 
hawk-i said:
You forgot to mention regulations...if you constantly remove 4 point mule bucks, large frame 3 points will be doing increased gen transfer.
Click to expand...

yeah il touch on one.
regulations which are in the peak rut....... where all the Studs get shot..in the first few days of said 'rut'...... leaves not much else to root cept lesser animals.

now look at aus..... no regulations an a head hunter mentality....... hinds a plethora , trophy stags minimal, facebook is full of 3.5-4.5 year old deer an people whinge about no trophys.
NOT to mention the illegal spotlighting of male deer...........

this over time has taken its toll. but we have heli culling an thermal ground killers doing paid work in park also--- ssoooo a complete moot point.



guys want to make youtube videos on their 4 days backpack hunt..... so if its got antlers an can get it on film, its Dead.

they hunt the same places all year, year round and canT find big ones...............


Genetics are huge factor............. Feed is huge and if theres ALOT of deer, theres not a plethora of nutrients in most instances, an the good is getttin shared around by all.... in NZ they are targetting females to lower the population an in turn potential stags are left instead of shot in velvet... NZ has a bad shoot it eat it policy,........... an by shootin, its antlers, an by eatin it..they must eat velvet down there.....might be why they talk a bit funny.............
world class red stag herds taken down to bismal numbers an continuously shot in velvet...but no feed in the bush cos of resident hinds

from what i gather most American / Canadian areas are public land an open tag sorta, but if you want the big trophy you put in for LEH? or special tags on bonus points etc etc in ya chosen areas..known for big bucks?
the rest are somewhat counted an tags givin for ### animals, possibly all male, to allow for 'future' deer, not specifically larger deer...
so it has merrit, imagine if everyone of yas shot a doe this year....... thered be #### all in coming years.

1 buck will root 10-30 hinds , 10- 20-30 hinds make around 20-40-60 new ones next year... this allows sooo many thousands of hunters to take some meat for their year, pay their fees and not demolish the herd that Teddy Roosevelt? tried an really began to protect.
 
Last edited:
Iron Cat nailed it.

The other question I have is, does your camp & the ones around it have a "brown it's down" attitude? And before anyone gets their back up, I've almost always tagged the first legal deer I've seen because it might be the ONLY deer you see! (I also want to get back to hunting with the dog...)

So, that could be another factor... If you are taking the young deer out, they simply don't get to be big guys... And it might just be a reality of the carrying capacity of your local area. If you're not seeing tons of deer, it's hard to pass on them when you see them...

Cheers
Jay
 
During the off season I think many people are watching American TV Hunting shows where they are hunting in an fenced area (not really hunting to me) and they whoo and wow the huge antlers these animals are fed nutrients that make the antlers grow large (nothing like a GMO) deer?

Ironcat is spot on - as for the food what are the local famers planting, corn, wheat or soy?
 
hawk-i said:
You forgot to mention regulations...if you constantly remove 4 point mule bucks, large frame 3 points will be doing increased gen transfer.
Click to expand...

No he didn't. No diss

That's what he meant by genes.

In my immediate area, bucks in different valleys, around 5 kilometers apart, will have everything from racks to dream about, to spindly, thin tined baskets.

Some if it has to do with the amount of Calcium in the feed/soil/salt, etc.

Some of it has to do with other naturally occuring elements, such as vanadium, which will hinder both body size and horn size.

You're right though about the regs creating conditions that remove to many of the larger bucks.

The same thing happens with Elk.

Back around 45 years ago, there was an effort in the Columbia River Valley to capture Elk to enhance the herds of Elk farms.

It accomplished a couple of things.

One thing they did, was to cherry pick the mature bulls with great genetics, judged by the size of their racks. This temporarily reduced the ratio of mature bulls to cows and allowed the younger bulls or 5 point bulls with genes that would never be anything else, to pass on more of their genes than before.

The other thing that happened was they managed to innoculate a lot of Elk in the holding pens, before releasing them back to the wild.

Still, it wasn't a good thing.

I've seen an older mature bull in the field at the front of my house. He's been around with a herd of cows/calves for close to ten years and it shows.

When I first noticed him, he was a very heavy beamed 5x6.

His horn mass increased every year for the next 5 years but he was always a 5 on the left and 6 on the right. Beautiful animal.

I just saw him a couple of days ago. He's getting long in the tooth, he no longer has heavy tines. They aren't as tall or long, even when he bugles, it's not as aggressive as it used to be and one of the younger bulls, also a 5x6 does most of the bugling and puts the run on the older bull, whoes definitely on the decline.

Likely the Wolves and Coyotes will take him down this winter, if it's harsh. That might be better than wasting away. He's lost a lot of body mass as well.

I'm going to miss seeing him around. It's always a surprise and it's always a pleasure.
 
I agree with the general consensus that genetics and nutrition (including water availability) has a large impact on the quality of the antler and horn growth of an animal.

There are a few other factors not mentioned (or as clearly stated) that also have impacts on this:
1- Seasonal impacts - severe winter/summer conditions can also impact an animal's health. While this has direct impacts on the availability of the nutrition in the food supply, it also impacts the quality of that food supply and the animals ability to access it. Winters with warming events (e.g. chinooks), while warmer, can put an ice coating over the food supply for the animals and make it tougher for them to get too, or heavier snowfalls or longer than normal winter seasons will have additional impacts to an animals health and ability to grow antler/horn. Droughts limit access to water, which also impacts the animals health and ability to grow antler/horn. The same chinook event can put a layer of ice on the deep snow that cuts up the animals legs as they try to cross it where it is not thick enough to support their weight, but allows lighter predators to cover the same ground with ease and prey more easily/heavily on the deer/moose/ elk, etc. There are also the seasonal cycles that have impacts. In our region we see the quality and quantity of numbers increase and decline roughly every 7 years in certain species (e.g. mule deer, snowshoe hares, grouse, lynx, etc.).
2- Access to minerals/higher food value sources - there are areas that have more mineral licks available (again tied to nutrition) that can have impacts to an animals health and ability to grow antler/horn. And animals that have access to agricultural crops where the nutritional value is greater than that found in indigenous plant species (more proteins, vitamins, minerals, etc.) will have advantages not realized by animals who do not have the same access to higher nutritional forage.
3- Herd health - I believe that overall herd health has an impact on antler/horn growth as well. Disease can have severe impacts on the animals, as can other factors that impact overall herd health such as parasites, buck/doe ratios, predation, hunting pressure, local industrial activity, etc.

At the end of the day, in any given animal, in any given year (and perhaps more importantly, over a span of a number of years), that animals' age, genetics, physical health condition and its access to quality food and water is going to have a direct impact on its ability to not only survive, but to produce good antler/horn growth. All of this is easily identifiable as there are certain areas of the country that produce better trophy quality than other areas, and all of these variables have distinct levels of contribution found in the game in these different regions.
 
Like the other guys have (mostly) said, seems to be a combination of nutrition and genetics.

We had one hillside that we used to hunt as a kid with my dad and uncle. we were pretty much the only ones to hunt the area, very little other pressure, and if they had a doe tag my dad and uncle were just as likely to shoot a doe as a buck because it's easier meat.

So this area is pretty much natural for buck/doe ratios with very little human interference but every buck you see has only two spikes. the young ones have little 1-2" spikes, the biggest one i saw had up to 12" long spikes, but every buck on that hillside had only 2 points. It's the only place i've seen it like that, but there was clearly something about that area that just didn't support big antlers.
 
A Study has shown genetics are far less important than environmental factors. They've also shown that what the mom is eating while pregnant plays a big role.

The study I am thinking of involved two different herds from the Dakotas, one from a low nutrition area where racks tend to be smaller and one from an area that produces big trophy deer, and changing diet had far more impact than changing genetics by breeding the different populations. This study has been brought up on the meateater podcast a few times. I can see if I can find more info later if someone wants.
 
one thing forgotten is the hunting pressures. try not to hunt a place for 4 to 5 years and you will an increase of the quality of trophies. we ve seen in 2 different places where we chose to not hunt roe deer for 5 years, the quality exploded but the guys cannot stop to shoot the big one and it was of course a solution at short term. you need to stop to shoot to gain. food, quality of the soil and ratio of male/female are important but not only especially when you add natural predators. the return of the wolf has put more pressure in europe on any game so i imagine the same here.

so take care of your local, bears, coyotes and or wolves will help as well.
 
hawk-i said:
You forgot to mention regulations...if you constantly remove 4 point mule bucks, large frame 3 points will be doing increased gen transfer.
Click to expand...

I'd like to see some scientific data to back that up compared to the opinions of beer-parlour biologists.
 
Here in BC region 5 they have closed the mule deer season for resident hunters during the peak rut from Nov 11th to Nov 20.
I am told this was done because the guide outfitters lobbied for it but I am not claiming that to be true..... just the common thought around here.
The explanation from a guide outfitter I actually spoke to several times over an ice fishing season caused me to stop and think about how I felt about the closure..... I really didn't like it when they closed this part of the season.
A) I was told that closing the rut meant that more mature heavy racked animals would be breeding the does as they would dominate the smaller racked animals.
B)More mature, larger racked animals would survive the season and continue to dominate breeding sites year after year
and lastly
C) the resulting effects of the closure long term would create, or rather "restore" quality , large rack mule deer hunting for the guide outfitting business and resident hunters alike.

I was against the closure, pisssed off at the government and the guide outfitter association...... but after being educated a little more and from what I am actually seeing in the resident deer population..... I have come to accept the closure. Truth be told, I have seen some tremendous bucks around here in the off season with big heavy racks in the 5 and 6 point size and a couple even larger. One 6x6 was standing at the corner of our road as the wife left for work and she called me all excited LOL I've seen more 4pt plus deer in the last year around here than I have seen in many years. I even took one in the early season one evening in mid september which is usually not a time that i put much effort into hunting but am always scouting.
I stuck a tree cam in a likely big buck spot and have yet to go back to check it.

I was also under the impression that as a deer ages it rack begins to get smaller but I don't know if that is really true or not.
 
45ACPKING said:
Here in BC region 5 they have closed the mule deer season for resident hunters during the peak rut from Nov 11th to Nov 20.
I am told this was done because the guide outfitters lobbied for it but I am not claiming that to be true..... just the common thought around here.
The explanation from a guide outfitter I actually spoke to several times over an ice fishing season caused me to stop and think about how I felt about the closure..... I really didn't like it when they closed this part of the season.
A) I was told that closing the rut meant that more mature heavy racked animals would be breeding the does as they would dominate the smaller racked animals.
B)More mature, larger racked animals would survive the season and continue to dominate breeding sites year after year
and lastly
C) the resulting effects of the closure long term would create, or rather "restore" quality , large rack mule deer hunting for the guide outfitting business and resident hunters alike.

I was against the closure, pisssed off at the government and the guide outfitter association...... but after being educated a little more and from what I am actually seeing in the resident deer population..... I have come to accept the closure. Truth be told, I have seen some tremendous bucks around here in the off season with big heavy racks in the 5 and 6 point size and a couple even larger. One 6x6 was standing at the corner of our road as the wife left for work and she called me all excited LOL I've seen more 4pt plus deer in the last year around here than I have seen in many years. I even took one in the early season one evening in mid september which is usually not a time that i put much effort into hunting but am always scouting.
I stuck a tree cam in a likely big buck spot and have yet to go back to check it.

I was also under the impression that as a deer ages it rack begins to get smaller but I don't know if that is really true or not.
Click to expand...

Do you know how long this closure has been in effect?
 
Rugdoc said:
I'd like to see some scientific data to back that up compared to the opinions of beer-parlour biologists.
Click to expand...

Go drive around and see how many large frame 2 and 3 point bucks you see, lots of bucks do not have the genetics to become 4 point bucks no matter what nutrition they consume.

Scientific data, Darwins theory of natural selection maybe?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom