What leads local deer to have small racks?
- Thread starter vpsalin
- Start date
Talk to a deer farmer. They don’t allow the small antlered bucks to breed and they don’t inseminate the does with sperm from inferior bucks. This same concept should translate to mule deer herd genetics in the wild just the same.
I’d also be interested in seeing a study on the trophy quality in areas with the 4 point rule.
the deer racks are going lower but the age: true for roe red elk and moose so i do not knwo why not all for others: we call that swallow or regress in french hunting word.
Look up a book called "The Deer Of North America" by Leonard Le Rue
It's an in depth, comprenensive study on what brings on such things as the rut, stimulates horn growth, buck to doe ratio issues and the list goes on.
It used to be sold through Outdoor Life but I belive it's available for free online?????
It's an eye opener on what's real and what's myth.
oh for sure, many larger antlered animals like Red stag, Wapiti, Sambar and even fallow, they are somewhat peak by 7-8-9 years ol an then go backwards after this, * Penned Deer cast antlers over 13 years or maybe 15 years indicate this.
once their position in the breeding rights diminishes by younger up an comers, then he no longer needs a large rack an stops putting effort into growing them in velvet, or puts the nutrition elsewhere to get him thru--
alot of these older sambar go from perfect shapes, to then start to droop, smaller 'tops' or the brows just dont produce any longer tines etc.
thats why i bang on about leaving these 3-4-5 year old deer IN hopes HE continues to breed, an maybe wises right up, slips away an in 3 or so years someone can shoot a modern day booner............ (but that is thinkin big picture not MY/YOUR own investment) but if u do the time....things can happen.
but its hard to drum that into hunters, the whole split population on just brown its down, the meat eaters and then the younger dudes who end up with 45 racks in the shed and 3 large ones in their life......
difficult for once a year hunters to Age deer on the hoof, or realise its A young (like above) or B- old n gone back- or C- in its prime...... an then D E F - alot of hunters dont give a fk either. take em or be taken by else.
4 years maybe a couple more? hasn't been that long
the changes came in that year that the province took 5000 tags(all species combined) from resident hunters and gave them to the guide outfitter association and slashed moose open seasons in region 6 for resident hunters as well,
And life span, tough for a deer to grow decent antlers , if hunting pressure doesn't let him live long enough.
Grizz
Indeed, if you want to shoot a big buck, don't shoot a small one.
The rancher has the luxury of making sure only certain bulls can come in contact with his herd.
I've read things before that while the biggest strongest bucks do control a certain territory, lots of smaller and/or younger bucks sneak in while the big buck is distracted (could be locked down with a doe, off fighting another big buck, or just not there that moment) sneak in and do just as much if not more of the overall breeding.
If that big buck is run ragged from chasing off all the other big bucks he's got less time and energy to be doing the actual deed, and one buck can't keep tabs on every doe every minute.
Yotarunner
CGN Regular
- Location
- Eastern Alberta
Just listened to a podcast where they touched on this subject. There's some new studies saying that doe health has everything to do with how a buck turns out. If a buck has awesome genes but his mother was in poor shape while pregnant he is doomed to be a dinky buck his whole life.
Do you have any scientific data to support the claim that regardless of environmental factors lots of bucks lack the genetics to throw 4+pt racks? Because the study I mentioned before seems to disagree with that statement - that study found that environmental factors are far more significant than genetics, and deer with "poor genetics" grow plenty big under the right circumstances. Changes to nutritional intake had more impact on the "poor genetics" (aka from a nutritionally poor area) than breeding a "good genetics" (aka from nutritionally rich area) deer with them.
I feel like more data is required. I don't think any of us can make hard statements of fact on this sort of thing because there simply isn't enough data available yet. A lot of what is "known" now is anecdotal and/or conjecture.
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J
https://www.outdoorlife.com/story/hunting/how-to-improve-antler-growth-deer-genetics/
Just because a buck has big antlers doesn’t mean his offspring will. And just because a buck has small antlers doesn’t mean his offspring will have small antlers. (Part of that goes back to the fact that you can’t tell what kind of antler genes a doe is carry around.)
Does are contributing half the antler DNA to buck fawns. (If you can identify which does have favorable antler genes from your treestand, please share with the rest of the class.)
https://www.outdoorlife.com/story/hunting/how-to-improve-antler-growth-deer-genetics/
Just because a buck has big antlers doesn’t mean his offspring will. And just because a buck has small antlers doesn’t mean his offspring will have small antlers. (Part of that goes back to the fact that you can’t tell what kind of antler genes a doe is carry around.)
Does are contributing half the antler DNA to buck fawns. (If you can identify which does have favorable antler genes from your treestand, please share with the rest of the class.)
Deer have the potential to get big when they are mature. 5+ years. They will find adequate nutrition. Genetics are a crap shoot. They do need a place to grow old however, which is becoming less and less common with more hunters, severe winters and increased predation
the post above mentioning - if ya want to shoot big deer, dont shoot small deer...
this is how my thinking goes, when i leave smaller bucks, the 3 or so year old is only 2 or 4 years from being a stand out- give him a chance.
the spiker or button buck, yearling, is a 8+ or so year investment but not for Myself, for the next Generation HOWEVER- to ensure the next gen have deer to hunt aslong as there IS some Does in the field- So with high population of deer in general, ill take the Doe for meat everytime- next i might mistake a yearling Male, or if the going is tough an a Spike pops up, he is toast.
if its tough going an a "mid" sized Buck pops up, He walks.. he is the one I or 'my mates' might Run into in said few years when he becomes a Stand out- benefit of the doubt that it was his unlucky day and to learn from it.
i understand some time poor folk with short seasons taking any deer, an thats fine- i think its up to those who can, or those who want to learn an 'better' their herd Should get into these discussions and mention with friends to encourage some thinking an possible Hesistation or Forethought ? to the moment the next deer does pop up, or the next moment a Doe and Young buck present...
ya cant deter newbies from shooting the deer in the first place, but ya can educate them once they have cut their teeth on a few- the best an easiest way to judge deer is by seeing them, shootin them, then measuring them.. no one likes ground shrinkage, but its real in those early years an later on can be prevented, win win for hunter an buck.
theres a time for meat huntin an theres time for trophy shootin i rekon
the biggest drama i find with decent-ish bucks is the "if i dont shoot it, someone else will" mentality. it may ring true in some of your woods with high hunter populations! but for aus, it is a bit laughable. so much land. no restrictions in zones like you guys etc.
this is how my thinking goes, when i leave smaller bucks, the 3 or so year old is only 2 or 4 years from being a stand out- give him a chance.
the spiker or button buck, yearling, is a 8+ or so year investment but not for Myself, for the next Generation HOWEVER- to ensure the next gen have deer to hunt aslong as there IS some Does in the field- So with high population of deer in general, ill take the Doe for meat everytime- next i might mistake a yearling Male, or if the going is tough an a Spike pops up, he is toast.
if its tough going an a "mid" sized Buck pops up, He walks.. he is the one I or 'my mates' might Run into in said few years when he becomes a Stand out- benefit of the doubt that it was his unlucky day and to learn from it.
i understand some time poor folk with short seasons taking any deer, an thats fine- i think its up to those who can, or those who want to learn an 'better' their herd Should get into these discussions and mention with friends to encourage some thinking an possible Hesistation or Forethought ? to the moment the next deer does pop up, or the next moment a Doe and Young buck present...
ya cant deter newbies from shooting the deer in the first place, but ya can educate them once they have cut their teeth on a few- the best an easiest way to judge deer is by seeing them, shootin them, then measuring them.. no one likes ground shrinkage, but its real in those early years an later on can be prevented, win win for hunter an buck.
theres a time for meat huntin an theres time for trophy shootin i rekon
the biggest drama i find with decent-ish bucks is the "if i dont shoot it, someone else will" mentality. it may ring true in some of your woods with high hunter populations! but for aus, it is a bit laughable. so much land. no restrictions in zones like you guys etc.
