What makes a 1911 - a 1911 - in YOUR opinion?
- Thread starter Rob!
- Start date
Single action roughly analogous to the original design. Calibre isn't especially important; certainly the little flourishes like where somebody milled serrations have nothing to do with anything. If you took a 1918 and milled a couple of lines in it, it wouldn't cease to be a 1911. What if you cut the lines half that depth with a file? What if you scratched the lines with an awl? What if the lines were just scuffs in the finish, scratched accidentally during use? At what point do they change it from a 1911 to something else? Clearly adding a few shallow cuts doesn't fundamentally alter the gun.
It has to be single action because that's a fundamental property of the original design; single stack is traditional but not critical, since John Moses Browning himself considered other calibres and potentially they'd stagger in the mag. The .45acp wasn't a JMB thing; it was a demand of Colonel Thompson, one of the soldiers involved in procuring the new army pistol. A 2011 isn't a 1911 but not just because it's a double stack; there's a ton of differences between 1911s and 2011s.
Guide rods, optics, beavertails, magwells...these are all just add ons. If you bolt a hood scoop onto a mustang, is it no longer a mustang?
My preferred configuration is Government frame and slide, slim extended thumb safety, beavertail, Novak sights, magwell, undercut trigger guard, checkered front strap, flat MSH, medium trigger. Most of the 1911s I have built have basically ended up that way. The majority of my time gets spent cleaning up the frame and blending the beavertail. I start with Ed Browns but take off about a third of the metal and I usually recut the frame to allow for a higher grip on the pistol.
Most people who think they're traditionalists don't know the 1911 well enough to tell when the frame's been altered anyway. Or they think they're into classic 1911s and then recommend SIGs.
Everyone I know that's seriously into 1911s - i.e. tens of thousands of dollars serious, and in most cases "own a milling machine for the sole purpose of working on 1911s" serious - has departed from the original spec a fair bit (as have most major manufacturers, although most manufacturers couldn't actually tell you what they've changed or why, since most of them are just working from reverse-engineered specs which are themselves not always well-advised...for reasons a lot of manufacturers aren't even aware).
It's almost pointless to worry about sticking to "true" 1911 characteristics, unless you limit your choices to two, maybe three manufacturers. Everybody else has altered a lot. It's just that the changes aren't obvious, like the Series 80 parts, so people that don't really know the platform won't notice or understand them.
I've built more 1911s than most people on this forum have owned and I wouldn't apologize for Series 80 parts for one second. I recall the dust and surf zone testing done on 1911s by a certain US agency...the Series 80 was indistinguishable from the Series 70. Every other system failed. But people want to bag on the 80? Who cares...these are people who don't have a clue what they're talking about. You might as well listen to the average car owner about the significance of altering the valvetrain on your car.
The average gun owner doesn't know enough about guns to worry much about their opinion. Just buy guns you like and shoot them.
It has to be single action because that's a fundamental property of the original design; single stack is traditional but not critical, since John Moses Browning himself considered other calibres and potentially they'd stagger in the mag. The .45acp wasn't a JMB thing; it was a demand of Colonel Thompson, one of the soldiers involved in procuring the new army pistol. A 2011 isn't a 1911 but not just because it's a double stack; there's a ton of differences between 1911s and 2011s.
Guide rods, optics, beavertails, magwells...these are all just add ons. If you bolt a hood scoop onto a mustang, is it no longer a mustang?
My preferred configuration is Government frame and slide, slim extended thumb safety, beavertail, Novak sights, magwell, undercut trigger guard, checkered front strap, flat MSH, medium trigger. Most of the 1911s I have built have basically ended up that way. The majority of my time gets spent cleaning up the frame and blending the beavertail. I start with Ed Browns but take off about a third of the metal and I usually recut the frame to allow for a higher grip on the pistol.
Most people who think they're traditionalists don't know the 1911 well enough to tell when the frame's been altered anyway. Or they think they're into classic 1911s and then recommend SIGs.
Everyone I know that's seriously into 1911s - i.e. tens of thousands of dollars serious, and in most cases "own a milling machine for the sole purpose of working on 1911s" serious - has departed from the original spec a fair bit (as have most major manufacturers, although most manufacturers couldn't actually tell you what they've changed or why, since most of them are just working from reverse-engineered specs which are themselves not always well-advised...for reasons a lot of manufacturers aren't even aware).
It's almost pointless to worry about sticking to "true" 1911 characteristics, unless you limit your choices to two, maybe three manufacturers. Everybody else has altered a lot. It's just that the changes aren't obvious, like the Series 80 parts, so people that don't really know the platform won't notice or understand them.
I've built more 1911s than most people on this forum have owned and I wouldn't apologize for Series 80 parts for one second. I recall the dust and surf zone testing done on 1911s by a certain US agency...the Series 80 was indistinguishable from the Series 70. Every other system failed. But people want to bag on the 80? Who cares...these are people who don't have a clue what they're talking about. You might as well listen to the average car owner about the significance of altering the valvetrain on your car.
The average gun owner doesn't know enough about guns to worry much about their opinion. Just buy guns you like and shoot them.
1911
BINGO!
it is chambered in .45 acp.
it is all steel (blued, paint, stainless, plated...whatever, but it's steel.)
it only has rear slide serrations
it has simple fixed sights
it has a 7 round single stack magazine
it comes in "Government, Commander, and or, Officer" models
all controls are accessible with either the operators right hand thumb, or right hand index finger.
it is SA
it is not SA/DA, Decocker, safety, bullsh1t
it is to be carried "cocked and locked"
when in hand, it stirs the soul of every North American kid who ever read comic books
it implants a smile on the operators face with every squeeze of the short, straight back, break like glass, short reset trigger
it points and shoots naturally and instinctively (unlike hours of training that is required to shoot, oh I dunno, a Glock proficiently)
THE CHINESE make a reasonable facsimile of what I'm describing
If you're American, you can't own the Chinese aforementioned facsimile
Last, but certainly not least...it is a 70 series 1911 (80 series need not apply)
So by my own definition my GSG 1911, no matter how much I enjoy shooting with them, are not 1911s...I think John Moses Browning would be okay with that?
BINGO!
This is an interesting thread!
I have three 1911s chambered in .45ACP, and a GSG in .22LR
Springfield GI Model Parkerized, a 1917 or 1918 Manufacture Colt (can't recall the exact date ATM) and a S&W in stainless with rubber grips and angled serrations at the rear and the front of the slide and a full guide rod.
When I think of a 1911 I envision my Springfield. Yes it is a repro of a classic GI Gun but I am good with that. It's parkerized and has horrible combat sights on it but THAT is all part of what makes it a 1911.
I love and shoot all of them. Each has their place. I shoot the S&W the best, and the GSG the most, but the name 1911 still builds an image of a GI style gun with walnut grips, crappy little sights, and a parkerized finish in my mind.
The Springfield 1911 was the second handgun I ever bough... Will NEVER part with it.
I have three 1911s chambered in .45ACP, and a GSG in .22LR
Springfield GI Model Parkerized, a 1917 or 1918 Manufacture Colt (can't recall the exact date ATM) and a S&W in stainless with rubber grips and angled serrations at the rear and the front of the slide and a full guide rod.
When I think of a 1911 I envision my Springfield. Yes it is a repro of a classic GI Gun but I am good with that. It's parkerized and has horrible combat sights on it but THAT is all part of what makes it a 1911.
I love and shoot all of them. Each has their place. I shoot the S&W the best, and the GSG the most, but the name 1911 still builds an image of a GI style gun with walnut grips, crappy little sights, and a parkerized finish in my mind.
The Springfield 1911 was the second handgun I ever bough... Will NEVER part with it.
- Location
- West Quebec
When I think of 1911's in one statement they usually have a very nice trigger
You sent me googling - and apparently, you are right - 51 pcs for a 1911 and only 34 for a glock. Of course, when you consider the grips, (4 screws, 4 bushings, 2 grips), the gap closes significantly. Might have more to say about the finicky part today after my range trip. Taking along lots of ball ammo, but also HP, LSWC and even some Buffalo Bore reduced recoil loads. We'll see.
The only gun I know of that can be stripped to the frame starting with a empty 45acp case and then using only parts from the gun completely disassemble to the bare frame.
Grasshoppers if you have not done it save your breath.
Take Care
Bob
Grasshoppers if you have not done it save your breath.
Take Care
Bob
I just had this conversation at the LGS the other day with the guy working there. Here are my thoughts:
All steel
70 series
Single stack
7 rds mags
Single action
Fixed sights
Government
.45 only
These are the things I think of when someone says 1911.
Having said that, there are a lot of refinements that have been made over the years to make this pistol better or at least different. Some changes made it better, some worse.
There is nothing wrong with modifying or accessorizing your pistol to make it work better for you even to the point of changing calibers. After all .45 can be expensive to shoot so why not get one in a 9mm? For a range gun, I think a guy could have a lot of fun with a 1911 in 9mm.
All steel
70 series
Single stack
7 rds mags
Single action
Fixed sights
Government
.45 only
These are the things I think of when someone says 1911.
Having said that, there are a lot of refinements that have been made over the years to make this pistol better or at least different. Some changes made it better, some worse.
There is nothing wrong with modifying or accessorizing your pistol to make it work better for you even to the point of changing calibers. After all .45 can be expensive to shoot so why not get one in a 9mm? For a range gun, I think a guy could have a lot of fun with a 1911 in 9mm.
I've got 2 in 45...1in 40 and just bought 1 in 9mm to try.....I agree that .45 is gods caliber in a 1911... But honestly I'm shooting my .40 more...and not just because it's cheaper to shoot....ill do a 'rr' on the 9mm when it arrives to compare it.....I want it to shoot 'idpa'... And of all my pistols I still love the natural feel of a 1911....that browning fellow was a genius...long live his glorious child.
- Location
- British Canuckistan
if it's mechanically the same, even if different caliber, it's a 1911.
it is chambered in .45 acp.
It is all steel (blued, paint, stainless, plated...whatever, but it's steel.)
it only has rear slide serrations
it has simple fixed sights
it has a 7 round single stack magazine
it comes in "government, commander, and or, officer" models
all controls are accessible with either the operators right hand thumb, or right hand index finger.
It is sa
it is not sa/da, decocker, safety, bullsh1t
it is to be carried "cocked and locked"
when in hand, it stirs the soul of every north american kid who ever read comic books
it implants a smile on the operators face with every squeeze of the short, straight back, break like glass, short reset trigger
it points and shoots naturally and instinctively (unlike hours of training that is required to shoot, oh i dunno, a glock proficiently
the chinese make a reasonable facsimile of what i'm describing
if you're american, you can't own the chinese aforementioned facsimilelast, but certainly not least...it is a 70 series 1911 (80 series need not apply)
so by my own definition my gsg 1911, no matter how much i enjoy shooting with them, are not 1911s...i think john moses browning would be okay with that?
bingo!
Last edited:
it is chambered in .45 acp.
it is all steel (blued, paint, stainless, plated...whatever, but it's steel.)
it only has rear slide serrations
it has simple fixed sights
it has a 7 round single stack magazine
it comes in "Government, Commander, and or, Officer" models
all controls are accessible with either the operators right hand thumb, or right hand index finger.
it is SA
it is not SA/DA, Decocker, safety, bullsh1t
it is to be carried "cocked and locked"
when in hand, it stirs the soul of every North American kid who ever read comic books
it implants a smile on the operators face with every squeeze of the short, straight back, break like glass, short reset trigger
it points and shoots naturally and instinctively (unlike hours of training that is required to shoot, oh I dunno, a Glock proficiently
THE CHINESE make a reasonable facsimile of what I'm describing
If you're American, you can't own the Chinese aforementioned facsimile
Last, but certainly not least...it is a 70 series 1911 (80 series need not apply)
So by my own definition my GSG 1911, no matter how much I enjoy shooting with them, are not 1911s...I think John Moses Browning would be okay with that?
Amen.
OK, so it's anecdotal but it's what I got. My Norc fired 230gr fmj and 200gr LSWC without problem, but I didn't shoot it more than about 75 rounds total because I had a couple sweet 1911s to work out. The STI fed everything we fed it - and frankly, I expected it to. Over 100 rounds of the 230 FMJ and nearly as many in other flavours. The big joy of the day came firing the WW1 1914 Canadian contract 1911. It ate Buffalo Bore reduced recoil 185 gr flat nose - 200 gr LSWC - 230 JHP and 230 FMJ.
Today anyhow, I'm not buying the finicky label. From what I've read, is it possible that the shorter variants - commander and officer - may have earned the finicky reputation we hear of? Some of them are reported to be awesome these days but I hear it took a while to work out springs, feed and timing.
Pietro Beretta
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Ontario (G.T.A.)
Government Model .45 ACP
Single stack 7/8 round + 1 in chamber
Hi profile sights w/dots or night sights
Full length GR or standard G.I.
Ambi safety or standard G.I.
.45 ACP hands down, all the way.....except for Delta Elite 10mm Auto, or 9mm for sub-compact Night Defender models, etc.
Single stack 7/8 round + 1 in chamber
Hi profile sights w/dots or night sights
Full length GR or standard G.I.
Ambi safety or standard G.I.
.45 ACP hands down, all the way.....except for Delta Elite 10mm Auto, or 9mm for sub-compact Night Defender models, etc.
if it's mechanically the same, even if different caliber, it's a 1911.
By this measure the TT33 is a 1911. Basically a copy of the 1911 with a few tweaks for manufacturing ease. Personally I wouldn't call a TT33 a 1911 but mechanically it is basically the same.
...
...well? kelseyscooter1
Regular
- Location
- Central Alberta
1911 S/A as designed by john browning. calibers other than 45 are acceptable.
the short sweet 4 lb trigger pull and 100% reliability
the short sweet 4 lb trigger pull and 100% reliability
Way more tolerance here than I expected. 
Thanks all for your input. I still lean toward the traditional, but if I ever expected my life to depend on it, I'm sure I'd appreciate some of the mods and updates available.
I took a friend to the range last week. He carried a Glock on duty for 10 years and was looking at getting his own. After about three hours on the range, he's looking for a 1911. Trouble is he's asking for advice what to buy. 
EEK! I think that discussion may involve a campfire - rum- coke - and ice. Maybe I'll refer him to this thread as well.
Thanks all for your input. I still lean toward the traditional, but if I ever expected my life to depend on it, I'm sure I'd appreciate some of the mods and updates available.
I took a friend to the range last week. He carried a Glock on duty for 10 years and was looking at getting his own. After about three hours on the range, he's looking for a 1911.
Trouble is he's asking for advice what to buy. EEK! I think that discussion may involve a campfire - rum- coke - and ice. Maybe I'll refer him to this thread as well. 
