What makes a shotgun tactical?

As big dot Glock pointed out, the decision to use the weapon mounted light is the safest and most effective tactic available for the situation. I've mentioned this before and no one seems to complain that every LE dept uses the same tactic for everything from high risk traffic stops to full on raids. Its life, get over it. As for Uncle Ed, he wouldn't get shot. The purpose of the light is to IDENTIFY THE THREAT. Upon illumination I identify Uncle Ed and I confirm that he is not a threat. So why would he get shot? Right, lack of skill, training and tactics.

I didn't contradict the four fundamentals. I take responsibility for where the shotgun is pointed and am comfortable with what it covers. The poor tactics and the concern with ignorant laws clearly shows a complete lack of mindset. Your rights and freedoms can only be suppressed if you allow them to be. Regardless of what's on paper I will defend myself when and where I see fit.

Plink,
The headlight is not the solution. A constant ON light does nothing but flag your position. The headlight will cast the light down the length of the shotgun when mounted, casting a large shadow and creating a dark spot.

TDC
 
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Claybuster said:
No, what he is saying that he will point his gun at "anyone or anything" on his property. What is he also saying is that he will use his gunlight as a flashlight to determine IF there is a threat and in doing so cover the target with his gun before it's indentified.

I have pointed my gun in the direction of a threat and am prepared to do so again but only when it's clear it IS a threat not just in response to an "unfamiliar noise."

I am a believer in the term "low ready" because it keeps the gun ready but low enough that it is not pointed at an unidentified target.

And the real damage to the firearms community IMO comes from the people who encourage pointing loaded guns at unknown targets.
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Yes, I understood the part about gunlight=flashlight, that's what it's there for. It's fastest way to IDENTIFY the subject and react accordingly, while keeping both hands on your gun where they should be. I don'tknow about you but, my friends and relatives don't break into my house and sneak around unannounced, a noise in my home likely warrants some shotgun pointing.

Hollywood "low ready" and actual "low ready" are two different beasts, the real thing still results in the dreaded pointing of a firearm at an innocent intruder just looking to put meth on the dinner table.

Nobody here is encouraging the pointing of firearms at unknown subjects without cause, home invasion/burglary is a good cause. Are you really more concerned about appearing PC than you are about defending your loved ones from an intruder in the most sound manner?
 
TDC said:
Plink,
The headlight is not the solution. A constant ON light does nothing but flag your position. The headlight will cast the light down the length of the shotgun when mounted, casting a large shadow and creating a dark spot.

TDC
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It was meant a bit tongue in cheek. However, it could certainly be a useful used in conjunction with the weapon mounted light, no?
 
It could be useful for administrative tasks. My concern is having to reach up and turn it on and off every time you need it. You should be capable of loading/unloading and clearing your shotgun without the use of light. Then again, a failure is hard to diagnose f you can't see the action, which brings us back to selecting appropriate gear that is reliable and functional.

TDC
 
Win/64 said:
What if the so called "scumbag" isn't a "scumbag". It's old Uncle Ed gone to the Fridge for a Beer. You just killed Uncle Ed. Your the only "Poser" on here....
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Clearly you need some training if you are pumping rounds into someone you know getting a beer from your fridge.

Universal rules: Be sure of your target?

The whole point it to be able to safely identify the strange noise or potential threat with a tool to equalize for any surprise, numbers, darkness, or aggression you might face.

For those of you concerned about a brandishing charge there are legal defences to to certain crimes: Like self defence...

I feared for my life as there was a strange person in my house making noise. When they refused to identify themselves, I dialed 911, dropped the phone, and got my firearm form the safe to investigate.

All of this "conditioned helplessness" here assuming you cant identify a target without putting your finger on the trigger and shooting. Ever do any force on force drills or simulations?

You cant carry a shotgun in a low ready? Maybe use the spill from your weapon light to identify your subject?

If it was the police, they would be coming harder and faster.... They don't creep through your house.

Sure if you walk outside with a shotty in your hand and the SWAT team is outside, you might take a round or 10.

Use the peephole, or call the police first before you go outside.

LOL.
 
LE and Mil personal also use mil spec parts $$$ trusted stuff. I lot of tactical setups I have seen have made in china stamped all over them and are incredibly inferior, all they offer is look and are good for range use and should not be trusted to protect you and your family.
Not to many people can afford lights and optics that will cost more than the shotty their on. And anything made in china should not be on a HD firearm.
 
Eotec on a 870p max with the surefire forend and the 14" barrel would be a near perfect setup for HD very expensive but a trust worthy setup.
I just don understand why people trust cheap Chinese electronics they fail that's a fact. Why risk it for HD you might only have one chance.
 
CNADNSL8-5 said:
I asked so that people would be specific with their answers. I was trying to encourage the debate while also learning. Your answer is better then a simple response of "use".

I know why we had this disscussion. I started this thread because of that disscussion. I wanted a proper place for it to be disscussed. The picture thread was not the right place.

I glad we have managed to aviod a pissing match (so far). There is a useful disscussion of tactical and tactics.
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When I said we had this disscussion I was refering to myself and some co-workers not anyone on this site (didn't mean to confuse but after reading my comment I can see that it would) we work in this field with gear that would be considered tactical to some but just tools for us.
We came up with that as a simple answer. We thought it was funny with the word tactical being used as a marketing tool, as in refering to clothes and such.

So we came up with what I had stated before.
......
 
ABCZAR said:
When I said we had this disscussion I was refering to myself and some co-workers not anyone on this site (didn't mean to confuse but after reading my comment I can see that it would) we work in this field with gear that would be considered tactical to some but just tools for us.
We came up with that as a simple answer. We thought it was funny with the word tactical being used as a marketing tool, as in refering to clothes and such.

So we came up with what I had stated before.
......
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oops, my bad. :redface:
 
TDC said:
As big dot Glock pointed out, the decision to use the weapon mounted light is the safest and most effective tactic available for the situation. I've mentioned this before and no one seems to complain that every LE dept uses the same tactic for everything from high risk traffic stops to full on raids. Its life, get over it. As for Uncle Ed, he wouldn't get shot. The purpose of the light is to IDENTIFY THE THREAT. Upon illumination I identify Uncle Ed and I confirm that he is not a threat. So why would he get shot? Right, lack of skill, training and tactics.

I didn't contradict the four fundamentals. I take responsibility for where the shotgun is pointed and am comfortable with what it covers. The poor tactics and the concern with ignorant laws clearly shows a complete lack of mindset. Your rights and freedoms can only be suppressed if you allow them to be. Regardless of what's on paper I will defend myself when and where I see fit.


TDC
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I find you're unsafe tactics and lack of concern for the law to be a wrong mind set, when LEO shows up for a high risk traffic stop or go on a Raid,those boys are going in HOT after the badguys,thats what they do,and even with all their training ,With all due respect, they still screw up from time to time, so how do you think that some three day class, taken once long ago on whats the front end and whats the back end of a shotgun are going to help,?

The decision to use a weapon mounted light maybe the most effective from a movement point of view,but it is not safe,there is alway a chance that something bad is going to happian,and then its the late uncle ED.
 
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Greenhorse six said:
I find you're unsafe tactics and lack of concern for the law to be a wrong mind set, when LEO shows up for a high risk traffic stop or go on a Raid,those boys are going in HOT after the badguys,thats what they do,and even with all their training ,With all due respect, they still screw up from time to time, so how do you think that some three day class, taken once long ago on whats the front end and whats the back end of a shotgun are going to help,?QUOTE]

That's got more to do with the LEO's experience being limited to a week or two training years ago at the academy, and thinking that a yearly re-qual is "training". "All their training" is kind of a funny statement when referring to the average officer's marksmanship and tactics. That's not cop bashing, it's a fact. If more of our tax dollars went to training our LEOs, rather than support BS social programs, they would have the level of training you think they do.

I'm privileged to know many police officers who take their job very seriously and train very hard, on their own time and at their own expense.

The mentality that, LEOs screw up so it must be so much more likely that anybody without a badge would, shows your lack of understanding on the subject. There are many lowly civvies on this board with more training than you think police recieve.

Some of you guys should sell off a few guns and build a panic room. I don't mean that as an insult, it would be a better use of resources and safer for all involved. You'll have a much better outcome hiding in a steel room than you would confronting an intruder with PC tactics.
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=BigDotGlock;

That's got more to do with the LEO's experience being limited to a week or two training years ago at the academy, and thinking that a yearly re-qual is "training". "All their training" is kind of a funny statement when referring to the average officer's marksmanship and tactics. That's not cop bashing, it's a fact. If more of our tax dollars went to training our LEOs, rather than support BS social programs, they would have the level of training you think they do.

I'm privileged to know many police officers who take their job very seriously and train very hard, on their own time and at their own expense.

The mentality that, LEOs screw up so it must be so much more likely that anybody without a badge would, shows your lack of understanding on the subject. There are many lowly civvies on this board with more training than you think police recieve.

Some of you guys should sell off a few guns and build a panic room. I don't mean that as an insult, it would be a better use of resources and safer for all involved. You'll have a much better outcome hiding in a steel room than you would confronting an intruder with PC tactics.
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Milk and cookies keeping you up?



Reread my post and TDCs,My point was how can you,average guy,hope to get the same level of training as a LEO,

TDC implies that it all comes down to training, so,how much training is needed and how often,what do you set a the require standard to have "optimal" level of training to be safe enought to point a loaded firearm at someone or something that's going bump in night,and you going from sound asleep to blood pumping "OMFG" what the hell was that?
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Greenhorse six said:
Milk and cookies keeping you up?



Reread my post and TDCs,My point was how can you,average guy,hope to get the same level of training as a LEO,

TDC implies that it all comes down to training, so,how much training is needed and how often,what do you set a the require standard to have "optimal" level of training to be safe enought to point a loaded firearm at someone or something that's going bump in night,and you going from sound asleep to blood pumping "OMFG" what the hell was that?
__________________
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OK, the average guy you speak of is the guy who needs the panic room and shouldn't try to act like he's in any position to ever protect his loved ones.

All the average guy needs to do to get a better level of firearms training than most LEOs is, wait for it... SIGN UP FOR CLASSES! Wild eh? Frequent training and living with a prepared mindset 24/7 is how you avoid foul-ups, if you care about your loved ones anyway.
 
Do any of you "Mall Ninjas" have any self defence training? I don't mean with a gun, I mean without one. If your going to use a Shotgun for self defence you better know how to handle yourself without one first.
 
BigDotGlock said:
OK, the average guy you speak of is the guy who needs the panic room and shouldn't try to act like he's in any position to ever protect his loved ones.

All the average guy needs to do to get a better level of firearms training than most LEOs is, wait for it... SIGN UP FOR CLASSES! Wild eh? Frequent training and living with a prepared mindset 24/7 is how you avoid foul-ups, if you care about your loved ones anyway.
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You are right my friend,but this is the real world, and in the real world there's not always time from work or the money to do as you say.

There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is.

And are you saying that anybody who can't get that level of training should not have guns?
I just what to be sure,because thats what it reads like.



Lets turn this thing back to "TACTICAL" shotguns,eh?
 
Win/64 said:
Do any of you "Mall Ninjas" have any self defence training? I don't mean with a gun, I mean without one. If your going to use a Shotgun for self defence you better know how to handle yourself without one first.
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Why plan on being without one...? What kind of strategy is that.

Why not plan on learning what tools and skills will give me the biggest advantage fastest.

Unarmed skills and fitness and great. But you come into the thread late and start calling everyone mall ninja for having a tactical discussion? How do you practice your hand to hand skills? You must shoot clay standing still? Right? So you shadowbox? Or watch MMA?

Look at history. Martial arts practised in secret: Africa, Brazil, Okinawa, Japan, China by conquered peoples.

Unarmed combat is the fighting of slaves.

Warriors use weapons.


But not necessarily a "tactical" shotgun.

;)
 
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