what model/brand of shotgun is this

Evanguy

Evanguy

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
98   0   0
Location
Gambier Island B.C.
I'm having a hard time figuring out what shotgun this is, the one i have is stamped St. Etienne on the rib, and that's all i can see. so i assume its build in France

i have searched this action on google lots and have found some really nice shotguns and double rifles built with the action.

but they are from all kids of different makers.

was it just a generic action that was sold to gun makers to build rifles/shotguns on?

it looks rifle Rigby and other big makers has build a few rifles on the action

if you look at the side plates, screw positions, the upper and lower tangs, the under lever, they seem to be identical

this seem to be the same action http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=388230&an=0&page=0#Post388230
this as well http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=386953&an=0&page=0#Post386953


there are loads of other examples out there.

54219481169_167d7c08a4_o.jpg


54219256816_895967f995_o.jpg


54219479548_8dacdb59b1_o.jpg


54219481174_463c921b11_o.jpg

​

 
Most would describe that locking system as a Jones underlever. He let the patent expire and it was adopted extensively by many shotgun makers. Its strength made it a favoured choice by early centerfire riflemakers as you noted. Snap action guns became preferred once they had proven themselves to be a safe alternative since they could be opened and closed more quickly.
 
Evanguy,

Your shotgun has the double-bite screw grip action that was patented by Henry Jones in 1859. He let the patent lapse in 1862, and as it was strong and relatively simple to make, it was widely copied by just about every gunmaker after that, for both shotguns and rifles. Your gun has, as Londonshooter points out, the William Anson push-rod fore-end fastener, which Anson developed in 1872. Your gun has the look of one of the late 1800s or early 1900s, the proof marks might give a better clue as to age. As most double-bite screw-grip actions are operated by a rear-facing underlever, they are commonly called "Jones underlevers," though these levers were in use long before Henry Jones's patent. For a bit of history, may I suggest an article I wrote for the Vintage Gun Journal on the subject:

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/lever-over-guard-origins

Your gun has back-action locks (named this way because the mainspring lies behind the hammer, which is different from Londonshooter's gun, which has bar locks, where the mainspring is in front of the hammer), which were pretty standard through half of the 19th century, and are still being built. There is supposedly a minuscule mechanical advantage to the bar lock, some claim, but I'm not convinced. Nice gun!

Fun fact: the French still call the screw grip action the "clef Anglaise," or English fastener, though it was a French invention.
 
i understand the locking mechanism and read lots about that.

I'm more so looking to find out who made this shotgun since it is so similar to lots of others but they all have different makers on them, was there an original maker then others copies the exact same design after the patten was over or were they all made by the same maker.

I'm more so I'm more so thinking about the similarities in the back side of the action, like the top and bottom tang shape and size, the side plates, the screw locations are the same, the way the wood spot some up under the hammers, the dolls head, the only visible difference is some time the hammers are a slightly different shape.

i don't have the gun in hand yet Canada post says it will be here Jan 3rd.

the only thing i can see is on the rib stamped "St. Etienne"

i will have more info and pics when i get it in hand

54225581078_624367400a_o.jpg
 
Many French guns carry no maker's or retailer's name, it is not unusual. You might be able to discern a maker from markings/initials under the breeches, and the proofs, once you have the gun in hand. From the picture, it is hard to tell if the barrels are fluid steel or damascus, another clue as to age. Without additional markings, you might never be able to tell who actually made the gun, and comparing stylistic features won't be a help, sadly.

I hope it arrives on time!
 
^^ nice gun, that looks very similar to mine. the lock's and action are the same but missing the dolls head, trigger guard and lever are different. so i wonder if the actions or locks came from the same place as mine (mines also 16 gauge)
 
I'll post a couple more photos of my French gun in a moment. It has some well-executed Damascene on the rib and action which is something one may encounter in a continental gun, along with the typical (mandatory?) sling attachments. Those things are not found on British guns that I have seen. Since it boasts to be "choke-bored" then I have to think it was made for an English-speaking market or client. 30" barrels and weighs 8 lbs, 12 oz!
Lockup is solid and the walnut is very tight-grained with fiddleback stripes. Chris refinished the stocks and recut the checkering, including the sole and that adorned with a skeleton butt plate.
I'm sorry to say that I know little about it and found it challenging to research with the language barrier. I don't know, for instance, if the maker is "Thuillier", or "A. Desvres". Perhaps one of those is the town it was made in?
 
P1030037(1).JPGP1030043.JPGP1030042(1).JPG
Sorry about those rust flecks. They have since been cleaned up. It wouldn't hurt to have an ultrasonic bath. This is one of the guns whose barrels I would like to refinish. I think they would be stunning in a fresh black and white.
P1030045.JPG
 
Licensed to kill said:
Interesting. About 40 years ago I was told (or I read somewhere) that back action locks were slightly faster than bar action locks. Like you, I’m not convinced one way or the other. Probably just conflicting wives tales.
Click to expand...
Apologies for straying off the thread’s topic, but the debate between bar and back-action locks goes back a long time. In the bar lock, the loose part of the V-shaped mainspring flexes downward when decompressing, and it is the reverse with the back-action lock, where the spring pushes upwards to rotate the tumbler. The stirrup linking the spring to the tumbler adds further leverage and smooths out the action, and is usually found on both types. The slight mechanical advantage is said by some to be the location of the attachment point on the tumbler, where one direction of pull imparts more force than the other — there is probably a physics equation for this, but in real life, there are so many variables such as the original strength of the mainsprings. The bottom line is that the locks have to be strong enough to ignite the percussion/priming cap, anything else is superfluous. Some have claimed that French breech-loaders had stronger springs than British ones, at least at first, owing to differing spring-making techniques.

The main difference between the two lock types is time and effort in installing them. Bar locks require more removal of metal from the action bar, which is hard work for the actioner. Back-action locks require more removal of wood from the hand, more work for the stocker. To the engraver, the back lock is a flat surface, with more work area. The back-action lock has a slightly curved surface, and the action body is usually round, creating its own complexities. Purely for aesthetics, I prefer back-action locks. You could get “Best” guns of either type, they are not an indicator of quality. Some maintain that bar locks are on better guns, but I have several Boss & Co and Hollands that say otherwise.
 
Last edited:
There is no need to worry about taking this thread off topic, I'm interested to learn all this and there isn't much more to learn about my gun until it is in hand

and Londonshooter that is a nice rifle, I love the butt plate. Thanks for posting it
 
IIRC, back action locks were introduced long before bar action locks.

If this is one you want to build a double rifle on, I would suggest you re-stock it to have a pistol-grip, as a straight hand stock in a big-boomer is going to be brutal, as your "gun-hand" is not going to have anything to hang on to. Remember that straight-hand guns are, to this day, used for a faster 2nd shot in a gun, so your hand will quite easily move backward to the rear trigger. That is not the case with a rifle; they all have pistol-grip stocks to control torque & recoil.
 
Jim, while looking for a gun to use I went back and forth a lot of times if I wanted a pistol grip or straight stock and picked the straight stock for the look. some of huge black powder boomers have been build on hammer guns and under levers that have a straight stock. I did think a pistol grip was necessary for a rifle opposed to a shotgun but my research has shown not always. It seems most rifles do have a pistol grip but not all.

Also a 16 gauge shotgun load is 1oz 70gr black powder and the 577 snider shots 1.25oz and 70-80gr of black powder so it shouldn't be more of a boomer then a 16 gauge shell.

Edit, well maybe I've just been on nitro express forum looking at double shotguns made into rifles and in actuality most double rifles do have pistol grips when build as rifles. I'll keep it in mind, I didn't plan to restock it but I may.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom