What optics do you prefer on your Black Rifle

[angryeyebrows]

For me, very much like #### Proenneke, I have spent thousands of dollars and much time testing out different optics for different situations. Among the list:

- S&B (Short Dot)
- ACOG (TA31F, RCO)
- Leupold MK4 CQB
- Aimpoints (Comp ML3, M3, M4, T1, 3x Magnifier)
- Elcan Specter OS
- EOTechs (551, 552, 553, 3x Magnifier)
- Nightforce (NSX 1-4)
- Trijicon Tripower

My quest has always been to find the "do it all" solution. When I look at different optics on the market, I always have a check list in my head. For black rifle users, most will agree that durability is paramount. I want the optic to be tough and always ready to work in any situation. I also want it to be versatile. It should be suitable to place accurate hits from close quarters out to the max effective range of the rifle.

Effective for me, is not necessarily effective for everyone. Take for instance the soldier on the battle field. Effective for him is scoring hits on a torso size target at 300 or 400 meters. For the precision shooter, that is not good enough. He will want more accuracy. Perhaps the ability to hit a 4" target consistently at 300m, maybe more. The point is that there is no one optic that does it all. There is always a trade off.

So, back to the check list. Mine is derived based on what type of rifle my optic will be used on, or more accurately, what I expect to be able to do with this rifle.

For me, I shoot 5.56mm from 0-500m so magnification is a must. For accuracy, I'm happy with hitting a 12" plate at 300m consistently.

Things I consider when looking at optics:

- Weight (Physical Weight, Size, Bulk)
- Durability (Waterproof, Shock, Dust)
- Ease of use (Simple, Use with gloves, Under Stress)
- Versatility (Use at different ranges, Mounting options)
- Reliability (Battery Life, Ability to hold zero with rough use)

I want to keep the weight/bulk off of the rifle so it is easier to carry for long distances and so I don't find myself fighting with it in improvised firing positions. Generally, this keeps the low power variables off of my rifles. They are great optics but too bulky and heavy for my applications. Fixed power magnification is OK but as was already stated, not the fastest for close range shooting. This leaves only the holographic and reflex type optics. These are excellent for close quarters, but lack the precision necessary for those long range shots...unless a magnifier is employed. The great thing about a magnifier is that it is removable. When you don't need it, you simply pop it off, saving you the weight and bulk.

My points on various optics:

Low Power Variables

S&B Short Dot - Large, bulky and heavy. Relies on battery for close range shooting since it's reticle is in the first focal plane and is almost none existent when powered down. Relatively short battery life. Not a common battery type. Less durable than other optics in it's class. Great glass, BDC turrets and easy to power up or down.

Elcan Specter DR - Never owned one personally and it does show promise, but complaints about it's reliability, bulk/weight and the fact that I'm stuck with ARMS throw levers have kept me away from it. Battery life is also a concern with this optic.

Nightforce NSX 1-4 - Very much the same as the S&B. Slightly less bulky feeling. Easy to use. No BDC but turrets are easily adjusted. Illuminated. Battery life seemed to last longer than the S&B. Reticle is in the second focal plane, so it is usable without illumination when it is powered down for close range shooting. Glass is also very clear.

Leupold Mk4 CQB - Junk. Just a poorly thought out design. Turrets require tools to adjust, no BDC. Illumination control is small and difficult to manipulate with gloved hands in low light. The reticle is simple and somewhat fast, but the sight is less forgiving of improper head positioning when compared to the other two optics. One person equated it to "looking through a straw". Battery life is mediocre, although it does use commonly available AA batteries. Really small objective lens which totally affects the optics ability to transmit light.

Low Power Fixed

Elcan C79/Specter OS - Fixed power, quite large and heavy for what they are. The biggest downfall of this sighting system is the fact that it is externally adjusted and relies on it's mount for zeroing. Any pressure on the optic or play in it's mount will cause a point of impact shift. Glass is clear and the optic does not rely on batteries as it is illuminated internally by tritium. BDC is somewhat useful, as long as your mount is functional.

ACOG 4x TA31F/RCO - Great optic. Clear glass, bombproof. Not externally adjustable, but it's reticle does have a built in BDC. Does not rely on batteries, but is instead illuminated by a combination of tritium and fiber optic. Designed specifically for the AR15 family of rifles and can be a little high when mounted on other systems with low butt stocks. Eye relief is the main shortcoming of the ACOG. With practice it can be fairly easy to shoot and acquire tgts quickly.

Holo/Reflex Sights

EOTech - Decent optics. Some users love them, others hate them. I find the reticle too busy. Also if your eyesight is not the greatest, the reticle will appear blurry or fuzzy. Mediocre durability. I've seen battery compartments jarred off from a good knock. The thing I hated the most is the scrolling buttons coupled with the relatively short battery life. The batteries (552 AA, 553 123A) are commonly available and it is definitely advisable to carry extras. The units also have an auto shot off, that can turn off the optic right when you need it. When coupled with a magnifier, longer range hits are possible and the small 1 MOA center dot is very usable. Fixed integral mount. Fairly light weight.

Trijicon Tripower - I only briefly used this optic. I didn't mind it except for it's illumination buttons, similar to the EOTech's. I found that in most applications, I was forced to brighten the reticle by utilizing the batteries, despite the fact that it is also powered by tritium and fiber optic. The reticle is a chevron, which I also found a little to big for long range shooting. Uses any 30mm ring to mount. Light weight.

Aimpoint Comp M3 - My optic of choice. Relies on batteries that aren't super common but has a 50000 hour life so it's almost a moot point! Bombproof and simple to use. Manual switch with positive clicks to control the illumination. Available in a 2 MOA dot for longer range shooting. Uses any 30mm ring to mount so height can be tailored to the system it will be used on. When used with a magnifier, I've made 400m shots on a 8" tgt. Very light weight. I am less fond of the Comp M4 due to it's integral mount, but it is still a great optic. The micro series is very nice if you want a REALLY light optic but you are stuck with a 4 MOA dot and again a fixed mount.

So for me, the best solution I have found is the 2 MOA Aimpoint Comp M3 with a magnifier. I think it's the most versatile set up out there. If I don't require the range, I can take the magnifier off and save the weight. It's super durable, easy to use, reliable and can be made to work with any platform out there, from shotguns to rifles to handguns. Of course the thing to remember with all of this is that what ever optic you do choose, it should never be with out a set of back up iron sights!

 

[Lojak]

Thanks for the breakdown angry, very illuminating

Myself, I've only used a variable 1-4x, specifically the Viper PST 1-4x. The glass is nice, though I'm not a fan of the ADM mount that came with it - I've seen POI shifts between range visits. The illuminated reticle is good, but battery life is terrible. More than once I've accidentally turned on the optic when putting the rifle away, only to find later my brand new battery has died.

I'm thinking of either an ACOG or Aimpoint next. Was leaning toward a T1/H1, but angry's review of the CompM3 is interesting, so I'll explore that one further.

-- L.

 

[greentips]

I have used all of the optics that angry has used + Elcan Spectre and a few more models of ACOG, minus Leupould ( did not even bother after reading the spec).

Let's put it this way, if you need a light magnified sight, nothing can beat ACOG + Dr optic/RMR in the weight department. ACOG is an infantry sight, it is for hitting 19" targets - you miss, and adjust fire with mk 1 eyeballs. It is good for detecting targets, but not necessarily for shooting small targets.

Between ACOG and Elcan spectre, if you have to shoot at weird light condition, the Elcan allows the user to adjust the intensity of the recticle illumination. I also find that Elcan is more more predictable and repeatable with the adjustment. ACOG sometimes need to "settle" in after the elevation and windage are changed. On the other hand, Elcan is a 1.5lb affair. Once an ACOG is settled, you do not touch it in the middle of any shooting.



If you want a reddot or reflex sight, Aimpoint - pick your model. Any model will work. I will take a M4 for zombie outbreak, rolling in mud and end of civilization, and H1/T1 for others. Most people can shoot aimpoint out to 300m very well - but 1X does not help to detect targets. If you eyes are affected by astimagtism, you will see the dot in funny shape - the 3X magnifier will make it worse and it is better to do without it.

If you want to have a "scope" 1-4X, you will be looking at 2X the weight of 4X ACOG once you are including a proper mount. Do yourself a favour with a 30mm + tube. I will run a scope when I need to dial in wind and elevation. If you need to shoot little "head targets" or bullseyes or in general more precision, a scope is a more appropriate choice. However, due to its construction, scopes are much less forgiving in eye positioning(cheek wield) than fixed sight like ACOG and Elcan. You may not be as quick in some unconventional shooting positions. Also, scopes have much bigger footprints and silhouettes. However, for shooting a 308 rifle or carbine with decent accuracy, it makes sense to go with a scope with more eye relief since you won't be saving much weight with a long eye relief TA11 - unless you want to step down to aimpoint. There is not point of having a precision aiming device if the rifle itself shoots 9" group at 300m.

 

[greentips]

Personally, I am not too fond of the mini ACOG like TA33 - I feel like looking through a straw. Again, magnification sight is for target detection, not necessarily for precision. I really do not need magnification for shooting 19" target at 300m, but I do need wider FOV and magnification to detect targets and possibly spot my impact to adjust fire. I suspect that is the reason military prefers TA31/TA01 series, while competitive shooters like TA33 because they do not need to detect targets.

 

[Claven2]

When you take price into consideration, I'm surprised nobody is mentioning Elcan. The Elcan DR, for example is SWEET. Also, for a range gun, the Elcan C79 is not a bad alternative to the ACOG. None of its shortcomings are really evident at the range.

 

[Dick Proenneke]

Both Angryeyebrows and Greentips make good points. Although, the whole Aimpoint M4 / Comp M3, argument about those models being tougher than a Micro is kind of lost on me. I would say that the T1 is just as tough for 99% of Canadian Shooters, especially since they usually land on Restricted rifles that never leave a range environment. Also with its smaller profile and lack of protrusions, it's less likely to be knocked around, or caught on webbing, branches, or cords. Although, I don't typically slam my personal AR's into the rocks and dirt for weeks, or months on end like you would an issued C7/C8 on a CF Infantry Course.

If I had to choose a full size Aimpoint, it would be the M4 and only for the smaller dot size and the ability to use AA batteries, which really is not an issue with a 80,000 Hr battery life. But really, the T1 dot is actually 3 MOA and if you turn down the brightness of the dot, it actually becomes quite small.

As for Eotech's and their prevalence on this threads' survey, I think that their lower price and availability is why more people are using them. Also, a lot LE use Eotech's for the same reason, and therefore they are exposed to more LE CGN'ers who become comfortable with them. I've actually used an Eotech a lot more than my Aimpoints, and have no problem using them, but I still like the Aimpoint T1 more.

 

[angryeyebrows]

I don't think the full size Aimpoints are tougher than the Micro. In fact if the Micro had a smaller dot size, I would be using it. The reason I choose the M3 over the T1, is first and foremost, dot size. After that there are a number of lesser reasons I go with the M3. I like the adjustment method better and I like all of my caps retained. The Micro uses a two prong tool to make adjustments which is conveniently located on the backs of the caps...BUT these are in no way retained to the optic. With the M3, I unscrew the caps and they dangle there while I make my adjustments using nothing more then the base of cartridge.

I also like having my flip up sight covers. If the weather is garbage, I can leave the optic on and simply button it up to keep the lenses clear. Not the case with the micro. I dislike the little scope bra they include. It is easily lost unless you develop the habit of storing around the base of the sight. It is also not as quick to get into action as the flip up covers.

Lastly, I prefer the generic 30mm ring mounting system of the M3 over the integral mounts of both the Micro and M4. If your mount were to fail, it is all to easy to procure a replacement. ANY 30mm ring will do in a pinch.

The ONLY thing I consider the Micro to have over the full size models, is weight savings. Between the two there is a 4.8 ounce difference, mounts not included. I know that is not a lot, but if you have ever carried a combat load over a long period of time, you want to shave off any weight you can to make room for the weight you can't do without (water, ammo).

About the magnifier. If you have poor eyesight, the magnifier will almost certainly improve your shooting at long ranges. I also disagree with GT, and think that, if anything, my dot becomes more refined and clear when viewed through my magnifier. I usually find myself dialing the brightness down slightly when going from unmagnified to magnified.

 

[Ar180shooter]

Between ACOG and Elcan spectre, if you have to shoot at weird light condition, the Elcan allows the user to adjust the intensity of the recticle illumination. I also find that Elcan is more more predictable and repeatable with the adjustment. ACOG sometimes need to "settle" in after the elevation and windage are changed. On the other hand, Elcan is a 1.5lb affair. Once an ACOG is settled, you do not touch it in the middle of any shooting.

Yah, that's about the only thing I don't like about my ACOG. Although, after it has settled, it holds zero very well.

I'll also throw in my $.02 on the Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T. Owned one for a while, shot a few CQB matches with it, sold it. It was an interesting concept, and could have been a good scope, but it was heavy, poorly designed, and it doesn't really do anything that an Aimpoint/EOTech with magnifier can't do.

 

[johNTO]

My Aimpoint worked fine on my CQB AR, but the red dot started looking a little fuzzy with my aging eyes.
I'm very happy with the Mil-Dot reticle and magnification of my NF 1-4X24 NXS.

 

[rhs]

While I've settled on a do-it-all config for my carbine (16" middy), I'll add to the list that have tried numerous optics and can't find one that does it all. I've settled on a Micro T1 for 100yds and in, and a Leupold MR/T 2.5-8 for everything else. Both are in Larue mounts. Maybe the new 1-8 Leupold, but it's outside my budget.

 

[FrankieT]

I've given up on the notion of a "one-size-fits-all" optic since no black rifle can do everything.

On my PS90 (10" barrel) - Burris Fastfire II. It's small, and light, just like the PS90. I may replace it with the RMR with fiber optic. I don't like batteries. This is a short range gun, and won't see action over 100 yards, so it doesn't need any magnification.

PWS MK110 (10" barrel) - Aimpoint T1. Again, small and light (just like the rifle), amazing battery life. (Short range gun, no magnification needed)

Tavor (18.5" barrel) - Elcan OS4X - Great glass, 4x magnification with illuminated chevron and bullet drop compensator out to 800. Only con is that it is heavy, but I think the glass is better than the ACOG, and the balance of the Tavor makes the weight less of an issue.

M14 Scout (18.5" barrel) - Iron Sights. This is how God intended it, and that's how she'll stay. Besides, the heavy Krieger barrel means that any more weight won't make it a scout any more.

I have a EOTech XPS3-2 that I planned on mounting on my SCAR (if it ever comes). Personally, I think it has the best red dot reticle. My only issue is battery life, which is why it hasn't made an appearance on any of my other rifles.

 

[Onagoth]

Poll is skewed, not all options were available since the start of this thread

 

[DaveMachine]

Leupold Mk4 1.5-5 in an ADM QD mount.

 

[AJCrowley]

EOTech with a Mako 5x magnifier on a flip to side mount, and Troy BUIS.

It's a really decent all round setup, but really, I'd also like a Nightforce, a Trijicon TA31, an Aimpoint Comp M4. There's nothing wrong with changing it up once in a while.

 

[DaveMachine]

Right.... An individual couldn't possibly have an idea or original thought on their own. Regardless, irons aren't an optic so they don't count.

TDC