What optics do you use for 3 gun?

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Tikka223

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As the title states, what optics do you use for 3-gun?

What are the ranges that targets are normally engaged in a 3-gun match?

What kind of accuracy are you expecting / happy with at 100-200-300 meters (measured in MOA or group sizes)?

What kind of group size should one expect with a simple 1x red dot?

What kind of group size should one expect with a 3x at 300 meters?

I'm trying to decide on what I want, and coming from my precision rig with an 8-32x56 Sightron I'm torn between wanting accuracy or wanting practicality that can realistically hit targets.

Oh, and it's going on an XCR.
 
Sky is the limit depending on the type of cash you're looking to spend. I would definitely suggest a variable zoom (1x-4x). I can quickly see this turning into a "battle of opinions" thread, as most optic threads normally do.

I personally have a SpectreDR for my AR. In MY opinion(which doesn't mean its YOUR opinion haters) it is a phenomenal optic for 3 gun purposes, as it is a battle optic. Precision isn't the name of the game in 3 gun. You're looking for "accurate" shots as fast as you can.

I have seen targets as far as 400 yards for 3 gun matches. Having said that, I can hit golf balls at 400 yards with my SpectreDR so accuracy is in the shooters hands. 1x, 4x or 40x, its about repeatability on the shooters end to maintain a tight group. With a 4x you will be able to group your shots more than sufficiently on targets.

Strictly running a red dot depends on your match setups. Some matches (depending on the range structure) only require a 1x as you may not shoot past 1-200 yards. Shooting a 4-6 inch group with a 1x is more than do-able at 200 yards. If you think the matches you will shoot go beyond 200 yards, I would absolutely look into a variable zoom.

Popular choices for 3 gun are the EOTech, AimPoint and AimPoint Micro, which are all within the same price range. The Vortex Sparc is a cheaper version of the above mentions optics. Moving into the 4 figure range there are a slew of 1x-4x optics ranging from a traditional scope and rings to battle optics.

All in all, do your research, see what tickles your fancy. There are many many different reticle designs as well. So many optic choices for a 3 gun rifle, you can't really go wrong with any 1x-4x choice. Whichever appeals to YOU as the shooter should be what you purchase, regardless of others opinions.
 
I run a 1-6.5 bushnell on my XCR..
Here is a group shot at 200yards with 7.62x39mm Chinese non-corrosive. The low left and low right were first two. The rest were shot after corrections.

canx8pn
 
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I still haven't decided on the budget yet ... not sure if I'm prepared to drop 1000$ on another scope, I already have 2.

At those low magnifications does the better glass really make that much of a difference? Will 1000$ glass really outdo 500$ glass? At 32x I'm sure it will, but 4x?

Hunting scopes are very popular in 3-9, is this too much magnification? I like the idea of having a 1-x, what about the 2-7s?
 
I find the clarity is almost more important with a low power optic as you don't have the magnification capabilities of a hi power scope. If the target is far away and appears grainy through your glass it's going to harm your performance. My optic is hands down the clearest optic I have ever looked through. Absolutely no distortion and crystal clear.


No experience with a 2-7. I don't know what type of handicap if any that would cause you for engaging targets at very close ranges. IMO, 3x would be too much to quickly acquire targets that are merely 5-10 feet away.
 
Purely from the 3 gun stuff I have seen on TV, some run a magnified optic with an off set red dot or irons for super close stuff.

That being said, I am an magnified optics kind of guy and shoot a 1.5-5 in matches from 10 yards to 500. You don't need a great deal of high end I think. A 1-4 should be enough magnification for way out there and lets you see targets clearly super close.

I personally like to dial adjustments for range, both close and far. For distance you have to deal with bullet drop, for close you have to deal with height over bore. You can do the same thing with a BDC reticule but I often forget which line to hold on. That is me. Might be something to consider as most red dots don't have turrets. YMMV.
 
I agree with Bolivar on this.
For myself, I avoid multiple range reticles like the plague; I just know that under stress the chances of using the wrong one are really good.
What sort of three gun matches you are thinking about?
The ones I shoot involve pistol, service rifle, precision rifle.
 
Not sure yet, the local range here has a similar set up with pistol, service rifle, and precision rifle. I need to get my RPAL for the pistol part and I already have a few very accurate but heavy rifles. Right now I want to focus on the service rifle portion and I would like something that will really be a good all-rounder for close and far. The bonus would also be that I would have something to take in the woods off season to maybe bag some coyotes ... and for coyotes I cant see myself finding them further out than 300 meters so I'm thinking that an optic that will keep me 2MOA out to that distance (6" at 300 yards likely off a bipod or supported) and I'll be in business.

There are a lot of scopes out there to choose from. Not a huge fan of the reticle choices though. The reticles are either too fat, too busy, to too simplistic (I.e. duplex reticles)
 
Actually, speaking of busy and 1-4 scopes, what kind of accuracy can you get out of the Burris MTAC / TAC30 / XTR Ballistic CQ reticles? I've looked through one and that center dot is pretty big. If it covers 2" a 100 yards aren't you just asking for a 4" group?
 
I personally like the SPR reticle that is available from Leupold and it on one of my Falcon 1.5-5x. Its at dot, with a circle and then horizontal and veritcal lines from the circle on out.

I would not say that your group is going to necessarily be larger then the subtention of your reticule dot. If you and your rifle/load can hold 2 minutes and your reticule allows for a a consistent hold on your target you should be fine to shoot 2min groups regardless.

If you have a super fine cross hair but can't hold it consistently in the same spot on your target, your group will grow as a result.
 
I run no magnification. Since it would put me into open division. That being said I have an eotech, and as soon as g33 comes into the market ill pick one up.
 
shotzee said:
I run no magnification. Since it would put me into open division. That being said I have an eotech, and as soon as g33 comes into the market ill pick one up.
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wolverine just took delivery of some...
you, uh, should buy one.... then post a bit of a review.
I hear that they have improved the eye relief a little bit.
 
shotzee said:
I run no magnification. Since it would put me into open division. That being said I have an eotech...
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Me too. I enjoy shooting without magnification but like the speed of getting on target that the eotech allows. Mind you, I've never faced targets more than 150m out in a competition (yet). One of these days I'll pick up a magnifier for the eotech and have a little more versatility.
 
I currently run a 2 moa aimpoint on my 10.5 or 16 inch ar. Wras matches typically are no more than 75 to 85 yards so this is more than addequate. I am picking up another rifle this weekend and am debating another Aimpoint or going to a 1 - 4 vortex pst or nf...decisions decisions.
 
Bolivar said:
I personally like the SPR reticle that is available from Leupold and it on one of my Falcon 1.5-5x. Its at dot, with a circle and then horizontal and veritcal lines from the circle on out.

I would not say that your group is going to necessarily be larger then the subtention of your reticule dot. If you and your rifle/load can hold 2 minutes and your reticule allows for a a consistent hold on your target you should be fine to shoot 2min groups regardless.

If you have a super fine cross hair but can't hold it consistently in the same spot on your target, your group will grow as a result.
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I will take your word for it as Ive never put this to any real test. I've always suspected that if you are covering your target with your reticle then you will have a hard time keeping the same point of aim and thus the group size will grow. However, I am new to this style of shooting and I need to get use to shooting rifle that can't hold sub-MOA or even MOA.


And just to throw this out there, most shooters have a difficult time getting under MOA with bolt guns, people who claim MOA with their semi autos, where it be AR, MR1, Swiss Arms or whatever I am and remain enourmously skeptical that if you were to fire 10 five shot groups that they would average out to be 1 MOA or better. Just because your rifle has shot a sub MOA group a couple of times out of the hundreds of rounds you fire does not mean it is MOA or subMOA, it just means that the statistical gods were in your favor that day.

Rant off. ... Oh, and Bolivar that was not directed at you. Been doing some reading on other forums and can get annoyed. All this to say, I am frank with myself with what to expect for accuracy, if a quality 1-4 can pull off a solid 2MOA out to 300meters I will be very happy as I enjoy the large FOV these scopes give.
 
Tikka223 said:
I will take your word for it as Ive never put this to any real test. I've always suspected that if you are covering your target with your reticle then you will have a hard time keeping the same point of aim and thus the group size will grow. However, I am new to this style of shooting and I need to get use to shooting rifle that can't hold sub-MOA or even MOA.


And just to throw this out there, most shooters have a difficult time getting under MOA with bolt guns, people who claim MOA with their semi autos, where it be AR, MR1, Swiss Arms or whatever I am and remain enourmously skeptical that if you were to fire 10 five shot groups that they would average out to be 1 MOA or better. Just because your rifle has shot a sub MOA group a couple of times out of the hundreds of rounds you fire does not mean it is MOA or subMOA, it just means that the statistical gods were in your favor that day.

Rant off. ... Oh, and Bolivar that was not directed at you. Been doing some reading on other forums and can get annoyed. All this to say, I am frank with myself with what to expect for accuracy, if a quality 1-4 can pull off a solid 2MOA out to 300meters I will be very happy as I enjoy the large FOV these scopes give.
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No offense taken at all.

I should clarify. If your reticle is larger than your target, then you are going to have a problem. If your target is bigger than your reticle and there is a way to make sure you are holding consistently, you are fine.

Think about TR shooters, they shoot MOA groups at 1000 yards with irons. That is because their sights are matched to their target (which is large) and that allows them a consistent hold so they can drop rounds in the middle.

A 2 MOA reticle should be able to stay inside a man sized target (16inch wide) at 400 yards no problem. Now, trying to put one in the "head" of such a target at that range is going to be a problem because the 2 MOA do will completely obscure it.

I'm still a fan of magnified optics regardless but I don't shoot anything where that puts me in a more difficult division. That is something to consider as another poster pointed out.
 
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