After my last thread I have decided along with all your great feedbacks, on keeping my model 700 in .243 for my varmint hunting and purchasing or buildind a benchrest firearm for long distance shooting [800-1000 yds] Is the .223 capable of such distances or should I stick to .30 cal [308]? My other concern is the optics for such a firearm. Do I have to sell my first born or is there a compromising solution? Also, what variable are we talking?
What optics
- Thread starter danny45
- Start date
223 will work to 1000, but more importantly it will work well at shorter distances. Honestly, although there are many experienced shooters that have parsed incredible things out of the 223 at long distance, I would stick with a 30 cal rifle if buying off-the-shelf (given the choice between the two). The 223 is a great calm condition round, but I'm sorry... a shot that can't be found on the target in a light wind won't tell you much. 1K is a grunt for a 223 in anything but perfect conditions.
As for optics, nobody ever regretted buying top-quality scopes. Lots of people regret buying cheap.
The gold standard for optics in 1000 yard shooting is a 12-42X56 Nightforce. Everything else is a compromise. One of the better compromises is the Sightron 8-36X56. The rule of thumb for scope magnification is 3X for every hundred yards. I would urge 4X personally.
My prescription would be a Savage FTR rifle with the scope I mentioned.
As for optics, nobody ever regretted buying top-quality scopes. Lots of people regret buying cheap.
The gold standard for optics in 1000 yard shooting is a 12-42X56 Nightforce. Everything else is a compromise. One of the better compromises is the Sightron 8-36X56. The rule of thumb for scope magnification is 3X for every hundred yards. I would urge 4X personally.
My prescription would be a Savage FTR rifle with the scope I mentioned.
Just get the best optics you can (reasonably) afford, even if it means having to wait up to save for it. Barrells burn out over time and need replacements... A top-shelf scope can last you a lifetime; the one I use has a 30 year warranty on it, and I wouldn't be surprized if other brands go beyond.
Nightforce seems to be the way benchrest target shooters go; I've never used one, but it comes highly recommended around here, so it would likely be worth following Obtunded's advice.
Nightforce seems to be the way benchrest target shooters go; I've never used one, but it comes highly recommended around here, so it would likely be worth following Obtunded's advice.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
A fast twist 223 (75 and 80gr Bergers/AMax) will do anything a standard 308 will do. Ballistics are identical.
Neither is good in the wind but will let you learn real fast about changes. I shoot my 223 out to 1050yds ALOT in some pretty strong winds. you just got to lean into the wind more. 600 to 800yds on MOA sized rocks is easy.
This is the least expensive LR rd that works. Recoil is ultra low and barrel life is one of the best. Any of the Savage HB's will work for you all the way out to a mile if you want to go that far.
If you are building from the ground up, why not a 6mm or 6.5? These fly SOOOO much better at LR and cost about the same as the 308 to shoot. Barrel life is 2/3 to 1/2 but you gain ALOT in LR ballistics for the wear.
Almost all recoil less then the 308. 6BR, 260R/6.5 Swede have readily available components. The 6 Dasher/BRX/XC/ X47L and the 6.5 mystic/260AI and other wildcats improve the performance tangibly for a bit more work on brass forming.
For optics, the advice above is sound. However, new products are making it much more affordable.
I use the Bushnell Elite 4200 6x24 w/ mildots for much of what I shoot and compete with. For the money, it gives you ALOT of scope. You do need to shim but likely you will want to no matter the scope you buy.
Farrel Base and Burris rings handle that chore with ease.
The 4200 tactical and the 6500 series are also excellent options.
The Nikon Monarchs offer wonderful optics too but the high mag ones have less then exciting reticles and not always available.
The lowest dollar high end scope IS the new Sightron SIII LR 6x24 or 8x32. The optics are right up there with the best of breed (certainly equal to my Pentax ED glass spotting scope). Mechanicals are sound too.
Again, reticle choices are limited but enough to cover what most shooters want.
NF gives you many awesome reticle choices. Mechanicals are great. optics are decent (sorry, haven't met one that blew me away yet). Heavy scopes so watch if trying to meet a competition weight class.
Leupold is coming out with some very interesting products now to try and narrow the gap of optics and mechanical performance in the high end market. however, they are still trying for the Luppy premium. Many competitors use these scopes. Many don't.
S&B - WOW, that is nice glass. Plain and simple - best glass I have looked through next to premium mega dollar spotting scopes. Definitely not after the competition shooter but can be used. Bring $$$$$
There are other brands like IOR, Zeiss but I have very limited experience so will not comment. Weaver is an inexpensive line that many serious competitors also use.
You really only need to spend $400ish to get a functional scope that can be used way out there. The Falcon Menace, Tasco Super Sniper, Elite 3200, Weaver and Nikon Buckmaster form the base with decent optics and good mechanicals.
It just gets more expensive from there.
Jerry
Neither is good in the wind but will let you learn real fast about changes. I shoot my 223 out to 1050yds ALOT in some pretty strong winds. you just got to lean into the wind more. 600 to 800yds on MOA sized rocks is easy.
This is the least expensive LR rd that works. Recoil is ultra low and barrel life is one of the best. Any of the Savage HB's will work for you all the way out to a mile if you want to go that far.
If you are building from the ground up, why not a 6mm or 6.5? These fly SOOOO much better at LR and cost about the same as the 308 to shoot. Barrel life is 2/3 to 1/2 but you gain ALOT in LR ballistics for the wear.
Almost all recoil less then the 308. 6BR, 260R/6.5 Swede have readily available components. The 6 Dasher/BRX/XC/ X47L and the 6.5 mystic/260AI and other wildcats improve the performance tangibly for a bit more work on brass forming.
For optics, the advice above is sound. However, new products are making it much more affordable.
I use the Bushnell Elite 4200 6x24 w/ mildots for much of what I shoot and compete with. For the money, it gives you ALOT of scope. You do need to shim but likely you will want to no matter the scope you buy.
Farrel Base and Burris rings handle that chore with ease.
The 4200 tactical and the 6500 series are also excellent options.
The Nikon Monarchs offer wonderful optics too but the high mag ones have less then exciting reticles and not always available.
The lowest dollar high end scope IS the new Sightron SIII LR 6x24 or 8x32. The optics are right up there with the best of breed (certainly equal to my Pentax ED glass spotting scope). Mechanicals are sound too.
Again, reticle choices are limited but enough to cover what most shooters want.
NF gives you many awesome reticle choices. Mechanicals are great. optics are decent (sorry, haven't met one that blew me away yet). Heavy scopes so watch if trying to meet a competition weight class.
Leupold is coming out with some very interesting products now to try and narrow the gap of optics and mechanical performance in the high end market. however, they are still trying for the Luppy premium. Many competitors use these scopes. Many don't.
S&B - WOW, that is nice glass. Plain and simple - best glass I have looked through next to premium mega dollar spotting scopes. Definitely not after the competition shooter but can be used. Bring $$$$$
There are other brands like IOR, Zeiss but I have very limited experience so will not comment. Weaver is an inexpensive line that many serious competitors also use.
You really only need to spend $400ish to get a functional scope that can be used way out there. The Falcon Menace, Tasco Super Sniper, Elite 3200, Weaver and Nikon Buckmaster form the base with decent optics and good mechanicals.
It just gets more expensive from there.
Jerry
See, I always wondered that... Is it just because of the reticules? Or is it the weight?
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Reticles. And turrent style, click values.
NF weigh as much if not more.
Jerry
NF weigh as much if not more.
Jerry
You mean the â…›MOA clicks on the NF?
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
The further you go, the smaller the value of the click you want. Otherwise, you can't make fine adjustments on POI.
Also, for the cost of a S&B, you can step up to a March which is apparently the alpha dog for target shooters. Completely catering to the needs of LR target shooters.
Jerry
Also, for the cost of a S&B, you can step up to a March which is apparently the alpha dog for target shooters. Completely catering to the needs of LR target shooters.
Jerry
X2 on what Obtunded said.
Unless your a VERY experienced talented shooter the .223 is big stretch.
I'd pick on the 30 cal if those were the two choices.
I've got 2 of the N/F 42X scopes and love em, considering buying a third for myself for X-mas. (i'm good to me)
For the price of a 30 cal rifle now adays you could probably contact Ian Robertson and get an action that doesn't need any machining, he,ll build you a stock, Obtunded probably has a barrell that,ll suit and a trigger as well, peter out East will sell you a scope and if your nice to him maybe jerry'll give you some lessons.
M.
Unless your a VERY experienced talented shooter the .223 is big stretch.
I'd pick on the 30 cal if those were the two choices.
I've got 2 of the N/F 42X scopes and love em, considering buying a third for myself for X-mas. (i'm good to me)
For the price of a 30 cal rifle now adays you could probably contact Ian Robertson and get an action that doesn't need any machining, he,ll build you a stock, Obtunded probably has a barrell that,ll suit and a trigger as well, peter out East will sell you a scope and if your nice to him maybe jerry'll give you some lessons.
M.
I am not afraid of spending the big bucks for my hunting optics because of the light availability at dawn and dusk and also because of the tremendous recoil on my magnum firearms, but fail to see the purpose of top quality glass fo paper punching. Maybe I am a little uneducated in long distance optics and for that reason I can really count on your perspectives. I presently have only Leupold vxiii on all my hunting rigs and suit me well for low light situations. Thanks again for any input and I thank you in advance for futur input
I'm going to to treat the comment as a reasonable statement instead of going with my first instinct
Simple: Long distance target shooters want to be able to see their bullet holes. That involves more than just high magnification, it involves having the optical clarity and lens coatings to allow aberration to be minimized, contrast to be preserved, and edge-to-edge clarity. Look at a Leapers scope after looking through a Nightforce and you'd think you had cataracts.
You, as a hunter, know you made a hit when your swamp donkey croaks. Target shooters are continually adjusting for differences as little as a half inch and NEED that scope to go right where they adjust for and go back where it was set before... only top-end precision manufacturing provides that sort of repeatability.
Target shooters need adjustments to be small in their increments, many hunters sight-in and forget. Reticles for target shooting have to be fine enough to allow the tiny of the center to be visible, whereas hunting really only needs a cross hair. That takes precision manufacturing.
Believe me, if I thought it was ok to use a $300 scope to compete with, I would take the other $1500 and buy another action. There are SOME scope that can be got for around that money that make exceptional target scopes, such as the Weaver T-36
The best way to appreciate the differences is to take the opportunity to look through a good quality target scope and see for yourself.
Thanks Obtunded for clearing a few things out. I have never taken a shot past 300 yards in any hunting situation because I am not sure of hitting the target in the vitals past that distance. I treat my marksmanship very seriously and shoot my rifles all year round so I can be assured of their accuracy[0.5 moa at 100]. I did not want to insult the long range community for my ignorance in long range shooting in acquiring my optics. I am willing to listen and learn from your expertise and I know I have to get out myself and start shooting at lond distances. I just want to get off on the right track and get the firearm and optics to fully appreciate long distance shooting
Danny, you will be enjoying target shooting so much that you will be shooting from dawn to dusk, so you'll need all the light gathering and clarity you can get . I just came back from a shooting session until 4:30 (dark in the Quebec Laurentians)!
Most likely the same drawbacks as S&B that MysticPlayer mentioned... I'm beginning to understand that "tactical" scopes don't necessarily make good target scopes (in most cases).
If I had more space, that would be in my sigline.
. I just came back from a shooting session until 4:30 (dark in the Quebec Laurentians)!Most likely the same drawbacks as S&B that MysticPlayer mentioned... I'm beginning to understand that "tactical" scopes don't necessarily make good target scopes (in most cases).
If I had more space, that would be in my sigline.
I have a Burris on my deer rifle. Very nice for the money. Excellent glass. The only scope I would consider replacing it with would be a Zeiss Conquest. I'm happy with the Burris so it stays.
For target scope information check out the optics review on the 6mm br website. It's a very good summary of the various high level target scopes.
For target scope information check out the optics review on the 6mm br website. It's a very good summary of the various high level target scopes.
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
I agree with you. In target shooting, we shoot under full daylight conditions.
A lot of the things that you pay really big bucks for in optics, are simply not needed for daytime target shooting. They are _nice_, for sure, but they don't actually help you shoot better scores. For example, very good light transmission, freedom from chromatic aberration, trueness of colours - the better you do these things, the more expensive the optics get (and quite quickly too, as you go up the quality scale). Yet these aren't needed for target shooting.
A hunter can (arguably) justify paying-up for a top-notch scope that might give him an extra five or ten minutes of hunting time. A photographer can justify paying-up for top-quality optics that are free from chromatic aberration (colour fringing at the edges of objects). A bird-watcher can justify paying-up for a spotting scope that gives absolutely true colours.
We target shooters are a simple lot. The only thing we absolutely _need_ in a target scope is an absolutely solid and reliable reticle, that doesn't move when you don't tell it to, and that moves exactly the correct amount when you tell it to move. Clarity is not absolutely essential, but it is a nice-to-have, that can help your shooting performance (the better you can see mirage, the better you can stay on top of the wind conditions; if your rifle scope isn't top-notch, you'll need a top-notch spotting scope).
BTW I've never been able to see bullet holes at long range, not even close to seeing them. I've never needed to, either.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
There is no doubt that the US Optics products are top quality, but a bench shooter doesn't need a scope tube you can drive nails with, his rifles don't get that kind of hard use. Something to keep in mind with US manufactured scopes is that its not getting any easier to ship scopes back to the US for warranty work. I know, a $2000 scope shouldn't need to be fixed, but if (read when) it does, you could be in for a lengthy wait.
If there is one shooting discipline that requires the firing of a large number of rounds in order to improve and maintain performance, its long range shooting. With regard to long range cartridges, those that are the most effective are the most expensive to load, the hardest on barrels, and the most difficult to shoot well due to blast and recoil. Often the first choice is a .300 magnum, and I'm sure many who choose these rifles prefer no to lay behind them for 100 rounds. The problems associated with shooting a .300 magnum are increased exponentially if one considers the .338 Lapua. The .308 is mild mannered, particularly in a heavy, long barreled rifle, and if a .30 caliber cartridge is chosen, the .308 is probably the best choice for the entry level rifle. The medium capacity cartridges from .22 to 6.5 would seem to be the top choices these days for a dedicated long range cartridge. The small bores are at no disadvantage to the .30 calibers unless you are shooting at a live target. This should be considered unless your shooting discipline mandates a specific cartridge.
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