What to do? CZ 455 Iron Sights Bad Groups

CaptainHook

CaptainHook

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Hello CGN,

I went to the range this afternoon and tried shooting 3inch targets at 50 yards. I run a CZ 455 with a Williams Rear Peep sight (0.093 aperture, with 0.05 on order) and a 1.5lb trigger. While I was able to hit the target pretty consistently, my groupings (5-shot) were pretty poor, ranging from 2-3in on average with a few shots (maybe 10%) completely missing the target.

The biggest obstacle is that my front post completely obscures my target.

I am not sure what to do. Should I file down my front post? I think CZ makes thinner front posts, but I cant find a source in Canada. I dont think getting a front globe sight would help since the Williams Peep Sights sit too low. I read that there are dedicated match sights made by BRNO, but they seem impossible to find.

Might also be a question of technique. The test paper my cz came with shows a 1.5in group with the default tangent sights. Most of my shooting experience comes from shooting cans behind the barn, so I might just be shooting wrong.

Edit: Guess I could go to better ammo too, but I think CCI SV is adequate for nice 1-2in groups.

Edit 2: I tried using larger targets (5.5in), got much better groups since I could actually hold centre of mass without my front post obstructing the target. Maybe time for a globe sight?
 
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First, how are you shooting? A front rest (or bipod) and rear bag will give the most consistent results. If you are missing the target paper on occasion perhaps you are standing. Shooting to test accuracy from the standing position requires considerable skill. CCI SV ammo should give groups at least 1" at 50 yards.

Second, a rear peep combined with a front post doesn't necessarily make for more accurate shooting; a front globe is the better partner for the rear aperture sight. Perhaps try a scope on the rifle before coming to conclusions about the accuracy of the rifle.

The test target from CZ, which at 1.5" is potentially disheartening, it doesn't necessarily reflect the accuracy of the rifle as it is a test for function. Many CZ owners find their rifles often out perform the test target results.
 
I almost never use iron sights anymore, save for the factory ones sitting on my BRNO 2E. They're too nice NOT to use.

With respect to the issue, I can't offer much on use of sights like that, but were I in your situation I'd want to rule-out it being a gun/barrel/chamber/crown issue. I'd put a scope on, get the rifle on a bench with good front/rear rests..and cycle a good variety of ammo through it making notes as you go. If you're even a decent shooter, it shouldn't take long to sort-out if it's a gun issue.
 
grauhanen said:
First, how are you shooting? A front rest (or bipod) and rear bag will give the most consistent results. If you are missing the target paper on occasion perhaps you are standing. Shooting to test accuracy from the standing position requires considerable skill. CCI SV ammo should give groups at least 1" at 50 yards.

Second, a rear peep combined with a front post doesn't necessarily make for more accurate shooting; a front globe is the better partner for the rear aperture sight. Perhaps try a scope on the rifle before coming to conclusions about the accuracy of the rifle.

The test target from CZ, which at 1.5" is potentially disheartening, it doesn't necessarily reflect the accuracy of the rifle as it is a test for function. Many CZ owners find their rifles often out perform the test target results.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your post. I am shooting benched but with no support. I get the impression that my rifle shoots well and its more a question of shooting technique/improper iron sights installation (will post picture). 1-1.5in at 50 yards is my goal. Do you know if I could fit a lyman/williams front globe sight to the CZ? I am worried that it either wont attach to the front ramp or that if it does attach, it would be too high for me to use with the Williams aperture sight.

When I say miss the target, I dont mean completely miss the paper, I mean miss the 3inch circle, giving 4-5ish inch groups, which is still pretty bad.
 
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I don't know if you're using standard targets, but if you aren't, try finding a target with a rectangular or semicircular black sighting mark rather than a round bull. Then work to make your sight picture consistent. It's easier when the bottom edge of the sighting mark matches the top edge of your front sight.
To test the gun, shoot from a firm rest, not a braced position off a bench, even with a scope.
A proper prone position with a good sling brace can be almost as good as a rest, though.
Good sling, good light, appropriate target and practice should get you one-holers at 20 m if the rifle is ok.
 
analemma said:
I don't know if you're using standard targets, but if you aren't, try finding a target with a rectangular or semicircular black sighting mark rather than a round bull. Then work to make your sight picture consistent. It's easier when the bottom edge of the sighting mark matches the top edge of your front sight.
To test the gun, shoot from a firm rest, not a braced position off a bench, even with a scope.
A proper prone position with a good sling brace can be almost as good as a rest, though.
Good sling, good light, appropriate target and practice should get you one-holers at 20 m if the rifle is ok.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. My current targets are super cheap ones I got off amazon. The humidity from my hands made one fall apart when waiting for a target change. I will go buy different targets and a proper shooting rest and try again.
 
Well, I took the scope off my 455 Full Stock and gave it a whirl with the irons. My gun can do the 1/2" challenge off a rest with a scope, so there's no issue with the rifle. What I found is that it is really difficult to aim these irons accurately/consistently, you just can't tell if your Point of Aim is the same shot to shot. That, and using only my elbows on the bench for support, makes it near impossible to shoot tight groups. Scope would help so you can time your shots with the wobble to be on the center of the bull, you just can't tell with the irons. If you're bent on using irons, you'll have to find a globe sight option (sorry can't help with this). I can do 1/2"-3/4" with globe sights on my Walther KKJ-T off a rest, so 1-2" on your elbows looks a little more realistic that way. Bottom line, these iron sights just aren't meant for fine target work and I couldn't even tell if I was doing anything off in my shooting technique since I could not aim with them consistently, so no reliable feedback on the target. I tried to aim at the bottom 6 o'clock of the black circle. Mid 2" groupings are reasonable for this setup.

 
Peep sights are tricky when first using them. I bought an enfield just to master the peep sights.
My advice
1. If you are the sort that has a WW2 call of duty video game play as the British and use an enfield for a while
2. Get the enfield training sight target to help you match the front post with the two side ears to hit the target.

The peep sight is amazingly easy once you figure it out. Some would argue it's a better sight than the front and rear posts.

Questions
1. How far are you shooting?
2. How many shots has your rifle fired? CZ firearms take about 200rda to break in. Initially I found all of mine to be rather inaccurate before that.

Keep shooting the gun it will narrow the groups with a mix of practise and break in your rifle should be dandy. I see nothing wrong with your iron sight target except that the point of aim may vary slightly lateral and on elevation. My 452 bolt shot similar until again 200 or so rounds. At 100m with post sights I can group within 2 inches though with a scope the ride could do better. I usually just shoot at cardboard with circles on them or printed targets.
 
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I started buying coloured dots to use as targets. Ama$$$n sells red dots(sales tags) 1/2 inch and 1 inch size,way cheaper than buying 1inch target dots. I find the black centres of targets cause me a problem with fine crosshairs
 
I highly recommend purchasing a brno peep sight set. Very easy to install and with the addition of an adjustable rear aperture and front rings you can get down to one inch groups at 50yrds (using front and rear rests). Definitely use a 50yd open sight target (about 6” dia).

Im less accurate with a bipod and shoulder set-up, but it sure is fun. Some days I can come close to my rifles sporting good optics (Hawke & Leopold). I usually shoot RWS subsonic (rifle match or championship). High speed ammo tends to have less consistency... waaay more flyers. My rifles include a brno model 2, a brno model 4, a CZ 452 Lux and a CZ 452 American. None of these rifles are bedded.

I also agree with Philhut re breaking in your barrel w preferred ammoafter a thorough cleaning, but I find ten to twenty shoots to be enough. I also found my rifles perform best when receiver screws are set at 20-22lbs.

good luck
 
Might be a little off the mark, but check your action screws. I was trying to sight in a 455 WMR, maybe my American, don't recall. It was not doing well. My shooter buddy went in the house and came out with a little torque wrench and the proper bit. Tried a couple of different settings and - PRESTO! - the rifle settled right down to a right decent group! Next time I was at Cabela's in Regina, I bought one. I've used it on my other 455's to good effect.
 
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45CAT said:
I started buying coloured dots to use as targets. Ama$$$n sells red dots(sales tags) 1/2 inch and 1 inch size,way cheaper than buying 1inch target dots. I find the black centres of targets cause me a problem with fine crosshairs
Click to expand...

A bingo dabber makes 1” circles on paper, or anything, rapidly. Dirt cheap too.
 
PinkyPlinker said:
A bingo dabber makes 1” circles on paper, or anything, rapidly. Dirt cheap too.
Click to expand...

Thought I was the cheap one who did that.... I am also fond of black tape often electrical to make X's or + shaped targets they just dont work as well in the cold as they freeze and glue does stick....(keep tape in your pocket and the glue still works a bit)

My favorite backings are all the cardboard I get that is recycled in a better way than the blue bin. Otherwise printed targets work well stuck to the cardboard after you shoot it a bit for continued use. Cardboard is also useful when sighting in when your missing the target and can at least find a hole in something.
 
Are you covering your target with your front post or sitting the target on top of the front post? I find I am much more precise when placing the sight in the 6 o'clock position on a circular target and just breaking the circle with the top of the post tangent to the circle. If I cover the target with the front post it's all out the window.
 
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