what would this rifle compare to?

huntman

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30-06 BSA, P17 action sporterized with a 26 inch barrel. Shoots sub moa everyday.
What gun could i buy today that would compare. (just watched the video on barrel tests and doesn't look like anything american would compare to european)

I know they are not made anymore so what about custom made? How much would that run?

I lost 2 of these in my fire (30-06 and 303)and want to replace them with same quality and accuracy.


any suggestions.
 
Get a Rem 700 long action and put on a custom barrel like Hart, Krieger,tru-Flyte
get a Robertson light hunter stock,and go shoot some 1/2" groups
 
Around here, when those things turn up, they generally go for under $300.

I have one, a gift last year from a very-recently-deceased friend. About 1960, BSA top-of-the-line semi-custom conversion from a P-17, original October ,1917 barrel still in place, super-nice woodwork, white-line spacers, D&T and about a 1960 steel-tube Weaver K-4 in place.

First time out to the range, it shot a group of 3 under an old-style threepenny bit (MUCH smaller than a dime) and I KNOW I pulled that last round. First two were almost completely in the same hole. After that, it went shot-for-shot on the 300-yard falling plates, the little 6-inch ones, timed-fire rate. There are VERY few new rifles that will beat that kind of performance..... and for $300, no more: that's what my friend paid for it, in a shop.

NICE thing about both the P-17 and the P-14 is that both had Enfield rifling: 5 lands, 5 grooves, deep grooves, high lands, lands and grooves of equal width, 1 turn left in 10 inches. The barrels last five-eighths of forever. Brits tried one out in 1908, using SUPER-hot Cordite Mark I, called the barrel toast after 12,000 rounds, nearly all with the barrel hot. So they changed their powder to a much-less-erosive type. I have NO idea how long one will last with modern IMR-type or Ball powders. All I know is that I have a DOZEN that shoot from 2-1/2 MOA down to 1/2 MOA and the barrels on them range from 113 years old down to a very new 92 years old.

But those are what you lost, friend, and you'll go a very long way to find anything modern that's BETTER.
 
Around here, when those things turn up, they generally go for under $300.

I have one, a gift last year from a very-recently-deceased friend. About 1960, BSA top-of-the-line semi-custom conversion from a P-17, original October ,1917 barrel still in place, super-nice woodwork, white-line spacers, D&T and about a 1960 steel-tube Weaver K-4 in place.

First time out to the range, it shot a group of 3 under an old-style threepenny bit (MUCH smaller than a dime) and I KNOW I pulled that last round. First two were almost completely in the same hole. After that, it went shot-for-shot on the 300-yard falling plates, the little 6-inch ones, timed-fire rate. There are VERY few new rifles that will beat that kind of performance..... and for $300, no more: that's what my friend paid for it, in a shop.


NICE thing about both the P-17 and the P-14 is that both had Enfield rifling: 5 lands, 5 grooves, deep grooves, high lands, lands and grooves of equal width, 1 turn left in 10 inches. The barrels last five-eighths of forever. Brits tried one out in 1908, using SUPER-hot Cordite Mark I, called the barrel toast after 12,000 rounds, nearly all with the barrel hot. So they changed their powder to a much-less-erosive type. I have NO idea how long one will last with modern IMR-type or Ball powders. All I know is that I have a DOZEN that shoot from 2-1/2 MOA down to 1/2 MOA and the barrels on them range from 113 years old down to a very new 92 years old.

But those are what you lost, friend, and you'll go a very long way to find anything modern that's BETTER.

Yes mine shot that well also, 2 shots 1 hole sometimes 3 if do my part right. If i missed it was my fault.
I didn't know the barrels were that well designed, sure makes a difference. I'll be keeping my eye on trade shows for another couple.
It will take a long time for me gain confidence back in another rifle.
Modern stuff just ain't as good.
 
What gun could i buy today that would compare. (just watched the video on barrel tests and doesn't look like anything american would compare to european)

derrr...uhhh... many of the P17's were built in the US.... almost all my rifles are US built, and all shoot sub-moa.... funny that...


if you want something "like" a P17 (heavy, grossly over built action), check out the rugers and CZ's. you'll feel right at home.
 
Have one of these, too, in 30.06, with BSA trademark. Wish I could find out more history, as in where the action was originally made, when BSA marketed them, and if they re-barreled and re-stocked them, or did they merely re-work surplus rifles. Even sent an email to BSA couple years back, but no answer.

Anyway, they are terrifically accurate, and the actions are incredibly strong.

I had mine customized. He had a hellluva time re-bluing the action because, he said, the steel is so hard. Told me these are very good actions that can handle pretty much any caliber that will fit them.

Mine had a nasty habit of failing to pick up the next round unless I worked the bolt with some authority, which would snap the shell into place. I'm told this is because the magazine originally was designed for .303 ammo, which is rimmed, and thus a bit wider. Consequently the 30.06 staggers a tad too much and can slightly bind, causing them to stick a bit. At the time there was no solution in the aftermarket for this. I carved out a shim for the side of the magazine from a bleach bottle, smooth slippery side toward the cartridges, which did improve it. Only did one side, should have done the other, too. Couple spots of glue, always stayed in place.

There also are good replacement triggers for these. I went with a Dayton Traister, although for some reason it required modification to fit the BSA. This was a mystery to the guys at Dayton, but they were great about it, made the mod I specified, and sent back to me. Worked good. This was over 20 years ago, and perhaps they've since learned more about these particular rifles. There are other options for these, too. Well worth it, as the original two stage trigger is, IMHO, fairly awful.

I'm pretty sure there's aftermarket stocks available, too.

And lastly, I understand that these can be modified from #### on close to #### on opening like just about all other rifles, which probably is a good idea. Also, some smiths, when customizing, will straighten out the dogleg bolt handle, and trim the magazine to straighten out the lines of the stock to a more conventional style...which will decrease the 6 round capacity of the mag by one, no big loss there.

One last tip: My scope ended up with a bent tube. Bushnell told me to have the mounting surfaces checked for proper alignment. Turned out that they were right; when I had it customized the smith found the surface at the rear of the action had been poorly machined and was causing torquing on the scope. Had I paid proper attention installing the scope, I'd have discovered this. He trued it up for me. Perhaps something to watch for on a BSA sporterized action. (One of the reasons I now always use Burris Signature rings, which automatically compensate for misalignment and prevent such damage. No lapping and messing around required.)

These are very good rifles, with terrific potential. I wouldn't hesitate to look into reworking it, and ending up with a one off rifle that's all your own.

Ultimately, I got too fancy with mine, which made me sensitive to some of the beating a hunting rifle inevitably takes. I came across a deal too good to pass up on a Vanguard 300 WM, and thus this puppy has spent most of the last couple decades as a show piece in my gun safe.

I'd bet that Ellwood Epps would be a good place to start. I understand he's an expert on the Lee Enfields, and may know a lot about these particular rifles, too, given there are so many of them around in Canada.

http://www.ellwoodepps.com/

Again, don't underestimate the quality of what you have there.

Indeed, back in Lloydminster, before I fixed it up, I took it to a turkey shoot at the club one day. Entered two events against 9 other shooters, one at 100 yds, another at 200 yds. Pretty stiff competition, Sakos, Weatherbys, huge scopes...mine had a Bushnell Scopechief 3x9 at the time. A friend did up some handloads for me a couple days earlier just for the event. Just two boxes, picked a formula from his guide book, and we went with it. I won both rounds. At 100 yds, three of us scored 30, but my group was the tightest. And I scored the highest at 200 yds into a stiff crosswind. Needless to say, my relatively crude looking old rifle, by comparison, was getting some pretty disgruntled looks from the rest of the competitors. Heh! I love it when that happens!!! But I was very cool and sportsmanlike about it... ;)

DSC00252-1.jpg


DSC00255.jpg
 
A quote on these threads----"Anyway, they are terrifically accurate, and the actions are incredibly strong."
--------------------------

Oh, how the rumors spread!

Here is what P.O. Ackley had to say about them, after his blow up tests of military arms.
First, a bit about the Japanese rifles of WW2.
test.jpg

Copyoftest.jpg

test2.jpg
 
Fascinating! First I've ever heard of this. I've yet to ever hear or read of an Enfield failing as such.

Some history...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1917_Enfield

Of note, manufactured in one plant by Winchester, and two by Remington. First for the Brits as P-14s in .303, and later beginning in 1917 in 30.06 for the US military, which found itself badly short of rifles as it prepared to enter WW1. There were serious supply problems with the Springfield 1903, and by war's end Enfield 1917s greatly outnumbered them in US troops hands.

Remington continued to manufacture the action for their Model 30 sporting rifle for a while after.

I would suppose that where and when a specific action was manufactured could have a bearing on quality, including tempering of steel, although I've not read so far that any one of the plants was superior or inferior with quality controls...albeit during the demands of war production, standards may not necessarily be ideal. Indeed, the Springfield was cheapened over the years for the purpose of reducing costs and/or accommodating increased production output.

What has always puzzled me regarding the 1917 Enfield is that, considering the premier role it played in WW1 with both British, but particularly American forces, far in excess of the Springfield, it somehow seems to get essentially overlooked in any discussion of military rifles and their contribution to post war sporting use.

FWIW.
 
A quote on these threads----"Anyway, they are terrifically accurate, and the actions are incredibly strong."
--------------------------

Oh, how the rumors spread!

Here is what P.O. Ackley had to say about them, after his blow up tests of military arms.
First, a bit about the Japanese rifles of WW2.

Was that written about the U.S. Model 1917 Rifle or Lee Enfield and Springfield M1903 variants? The reason I ask is because many U.S. Model 1917 rifles have been used for custom built rifles chambered for much more intense cartridges than .30-06.
 
Was that written about the U.S. Model 1917 Rifle or Lee Enfield and Springfield M1903 variants? The reason I ask is because many U.S. Model 1917 rifles have been used for custom built rifles chambered for much more intense cartridges than .30-06.

It was the US Model of 1917.
Here are the details. In every action tested he he first installed a very heavy duty barrel in 270 Magnum, in order to get enough powder in them to test the actions.
That bit about the action still serviceable, shown here at the top, applied to theprevious test.
ED.jpg
 
The BSA / PH rifles (of various Enfield models; No. 1s, No. 4s, P-14 / M17) were made / sold early '50's to about mid '60's but some remained availlble 'til the early '70s.

They were designed to provide low cost workhorse rifles.

These rifles are not considered as being "bubba'd" rifles, and some are collecting them (more and more, actually). Make a search in the forum, I posted almost every models some time ago.
These rifles can be dated by the Birmingham proffhouse "Viewer's code" wich usually is found underneath the barrel, where there is a "crossed swords" stamp with letters and numbers, that's what I need to date the rifle (a clean drawing or a clear picture works best).

I have seen and shot P-14 rifles in many powerful calibers, such as .378 Weatherby Magnum....

As a sidenote; the M-17 was the base for the commercial Remington M/30 (1920) wich was first produced as a ####-on-closing action but was soon changed for a ####-on-open action (1926? M/30 Express Rifle).
 
Baribal...

You got me curious, so I just pulled mine apart to look for markings you suggested.

Nothing like that...???

Only markings are: 2 crowns (possibly 3), BVBPNP 30.06 2.50" N=41 GRs - 220 Bullet...which leads me to believe this is the original barrel??? Although it has a slot cut in it for a rear sight, which I can't imagine was standard on a military barrel...perhaps a mod by BSA?

S/N H3***, bolt handle has matching S/N stamped on it.

There's an "E" stamped on the bolt release face, for what that's worth, and a variety of numbers haphazardly stamped on the underside of the action ahead of the magazine.

The BSA insignia is on the top surface at the rear of the action, under the rear base for the scope.

Anything else I might look for???

Couldn't find your posts with the "search" feature.
 
My bubbaed Pattern 14 out shoots every #4 I have ever tried.
I would have no qualms about bringing a P17 home if it was in good shape.

Yes I said it...I would own a 30/06. :p

Also some say they are overbuilt, but bah it's a 80+ year old battle rifle built for tougher men then most alive today. So to those folks that ##### about the weight of these rifles and such, grow some muscles, harden the f**k up and enjoy a great rifle. :D
 
I have seen and shot P-14 rifles in many powerful calibers, such as .378 Weatherby Magnum....

The Old 14/17 action is as strong as you are ever really going to need. Some of the new actions out there like the Steyrs etc that lock into the end of the barrel claim to be able to contain pressures in the same league or more, but unless you are out to blow one apart, they are pretty much indistructable. G&A or Rifleshooter did a more current test to destruction on old milsurps a few years back (approx 5yrs ago or so) and the old 14/17s were still hanging on quite well. Considering you can ream a P17 to a 300WM from 30-06 tells you about how strong they are, and how much metal is there.
Likewise A-Square, though not felt to be the best rifles in the world, based thier series of rifles in the 80s and 90s on the old 17s right up to 500 A-square (IIRC).
As for the hardness bugaboo, the Eddystones wore that complaint alot, with concerns over forward reciever ring cracks being brought up from the 1930s on. That said, there was also a school of thought that rebarreling might have been the cause for cracking. That all aside, thier hardness is long since known. You can reharden them, and magflux them if you want to be sure. Mind you, you can also just keep the pressures under 100Kpsi....;)
 
The Enfield is an adequately strong action for any sane loading. Stay away from Eddystone actions as they were extremely hard to the point of being brittle, very likely the one Mr. Ackley blew up, a very knowledgeable man where rifles were concerned but like everone else not without his personal predijuces.
 
Usually, you need to remove the barreled action from the stock to see it.
You should find the viewer's mark beside the "tons. proof stamp, as seen below. Every British firearm sold to public in the UK have to go through either Birmingham or London Proofhouse.The picture below is from a P-H barrel, but both BSA and P-H used the Birmingham Proofhouse.
Stamped together with the viewer's mark you must also see the Proof pressure (in Tons), the caliber and the case length, depending on caliber as below.

P1010015.jpg


The Private Viewer's mark is T B
 
Baribal...

Took my rifle apart before that last post.

Nothing like those marks on mine...??? No "Proof Pressure" indication, nor viewer's mark. Nothing at all on the underside of the barrel. I think it would take a lot of polishing to grind stampings like that off, and don't believe this barrel has had the kind of work done to it.

Yet it does have the BSA logo. Different rules if the rifles were exported???

Appreciate your indulgence. Always have been curious about the history of this gun.

:)
 
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