what would you choose 6.5-284 or 300win
- Thread starter larry fraser
- Start date
p-17 said:
Are you sure about that? Is that just an F-Class rule or does it apply to the DCRA NSCC sniper matches as well?
Do all 300 win mag. loadings exceed the Connaught range template? The only specific caliber restriction I know of is that it must be 8mm or less.
Quiet said:
You are correct about the 8mm restriction but I think there is also a MV/BC calculation, at least for Connaught. Other ranges have their own restrictions. I would find out what ranges in your area you plan to shoot and see what restictions are on them.
Back to the 6.5-.284 barrel burn out....
I stated that you can count on buying a new barrel every 1200 round to stay competitive. This is not saying the barrel is burned out or is scrap, it could still be a very good hunting barrel and more then likely better then any factory offering. However with the new 1/2 MOA F Class V bull, that barrel may not be a front runner.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
6mmBR.com for ALOT of info on small bore target cartridges.
At longer distances, bullet BC really makes a difference so larger/heavier bullets have an edge IF you can handle the recoil.
The 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm are wonderful long range cartridges. Many are doing very well with the little 6BR and its many family members. Others are going to larger bores and cases.
Just depends on what you want and the rules of the game you want to play in.
For me, read my post on the 6.5 Mystic. My version of the 260AI. I am pushing 139gr Lapua's to 2900fps using 10% less powder then the 6.5-284.
A bit slower but very accurate and enough even at 1000m. I find this ideal for F class shooting.
There are a variety of options all with their pros and cons. Enjoy the reading and the many varied opinions.
Jerry
At longer distances, bullet BC really makes a difference so larger/heavier bullets have an edge IF you can handle the recoil.
The 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm are wonderful long range cartridges. Many are doing very well with the little 6BR and its many family members. Others are going to larger bores and cases.
Just depends on what you want and the rules of the game you want to play in.
For me, read my post on the 6.5 Mystic. My version of the 260AI. I am pushing 139gr Lapua's to 2900fps using 10% less powder then the 6.5-284.
A bit slower but very accurate and enough even at 1000m. I find this ideal for F class shooting.
There are a variety of options all with their pros and cons. Enjoy the reading and the many varied opinions.
Jerry
windborne11
Regular
- Location
- SW Ontario
KnockKnock, Obviously you have experience with the 6.5x284.
But John Brewer stated that he wont go to a match if his 6.5 x 284 barrel has over 700 rounds thru it. Barrel burns out before the end of the match.
That was the statement that made me choose a 6.5 x 55 chamber. I am getting .284 balistics with only 44gr H4350.
BTW John Kajfes smoked all of the other Canadians this year with his 6.5 x .284. Bet it was that tuner eh John???
But John Brewer stated that he wont go to a match if his 6.5 x 284 barrel has over 700 rounds thru it. Barrel burns out before the end of the match.
That was the statement that made me choose a 6.5 x 55 chamber. I am getting .284 balistics with only 44gr H4350.
BTW John Kajfes smoked all of the other Canadians this year with his 6.5 x .284. Bet it was that tuner eh John???
windborne11 said:
probably the tuner...
I was re-reading through some of the posts and just want to make sure that it's understood that my background is punching paper... I don't hunt and I really prefer the longer distances especially 1000 yards (f-class) and I shoot in the east.
You have to decide what you want to do or shoot as in short, medium or long range... and which discipline.
I have 6.5 barrels that if shot at 100 yards 5 bullets would all touch. Many of us do... but they don't work at the longer distances simple because the round count is too high on them. What's hidden behind the round count is the message that the throat is pretty eroded and cracked... and there might be other things like something with one of the lands they might shoot fine at 300 or even 400/500. they might even be fine for hunting out to 600... but I doubt any of you hunters would drag a 30" heavy contour through the bush for a day.
I think we have to be aware of the purpose or intent behind what a shooter wants to do... and which discipline and within the discipline... is he hunting or target shooting and at what distance(s)...
It' my impression from Larry's original post that he's buidling a target rifle for competition and not hunting. He did say 1000 yards and he said he's got 4000 for the project... Well that'll certainly buy a lotta gun...
Is he going to shot competitively? There are a lot of calibres that can work. The lighter less recoiling calibres might give you longer barrel life in that they'll still be grouping well with a high round count. Some of these calibres in the right hands can win at the longer distances on any given day and especially so in the hands of certain individuals.
A 6BR in the hands of some one like Norm Barber at the 1000 yard line gives me the shivers... A .260AI like Gord Ogg shoots can win and it certainly can stay with the 6.5/284s... we've got many other guys like Terry Perkins who shoots 6.5/284 off a bipod, he's deadly... and there's a whole pile of other guys with 7mm like Don McInnis... and Roy now what the heck does he shoot again? I mention them because I know these guys out east here... and I'm absolutely certain there's guys across the rest of the country doing the same darn thing...
...then there's the 6XC, a glorified 6/250 and a few others mentioned... all of them in the right hands can do well from a target shooting aspect...
So to start you decide, lighter recoil a little higher round count and you bang away until you become proficient reading the wind/mirage...
Or you look down the line and see what's winning, or better still what's the common denominator on the line... most likely a 6.5/284 and unless it's really screwed up during the build this rifle will get you where you want go competitively right out 1000 yards trouble is after say 1200 rounds you're barrel might become a problem... so you have to decide yup that's what I'm willing to do...
If you're in this target shooting game long enough you quickly realized that taking a barrel with 700 rounds on it into a major match which probably is going to involve shooting at longer distances is not a smart thing to do...
You might get away with it, no doubt some have but it's an exception to the rule... and trying to make is sound like it's a normal thing isn't right... try and do this consistently and sooner or later you are going to get burned.
as of late ya there's some 7mm out there doing well and variations of... as mentioned Al Warner used one, the South Africans used a few... Al's a gunsmith do you think he's worried about round count?... don't think so... most of the American f-class team shoots 6.5/284s for a variety of reasons... anyone want to tell me they don't do well with them? Are they worried about barrel life?
you can build a cracker jack of a rifle on a Rem short action, chambered in 6.5/284 with a good trigger, custom barrel and get on with learning to read the wind/mirage which means you show up for practices and matches or you can spend your time debating lesser calibres, looking for higher round count, less recoil... debating the issue of bipod or rest... scope powers... etc...
a 139/140/142 6.5 bullet ballistically is pretty good to start with to learn the long range game...get it built get it done and get on the range...
get out there on the playing field and meet some of the guys who shoot what you want to shoot, are good at it and spend some time with them...
- Location
- behind the grassy knoll
John Excellent post! I agree that to be in the top rankings for serious competitive shooting a low round count barrel will certainly have an edge. You hit it on the head about differring distances 100%.
My read of Larrys post is that he is relatively new to reloading, which with a 6.5x284 is must do, due to the lack of commercial ammo, and even if factory ammo was available , any competitive nature is then lost.
Would I enter a seroius competition with a barrel with 2500 rounds plus through it? No. But is it totally shot out like eveyone claims? NO
I can still make the chucks VERY nervous with this "shot out barrel"
I would venture that any serious competitive shooter in the top ranking changes out barrels more frequently than is maybe totally required , but it can make a difference to ranking and it is hard to make up for losses.
I just get annoyed that there is so much BS about this caliber being such a barrel burner. Is it any worse than 7WSM or 6.5 WSM ? Not likely.
It is accurate, that is well documented, it has light recoil, this is documented, does it burn barrels faster than some? Possibly but to state that the barrel is totally done for use in 1200 rnds I think is wrong. Maybe for full out competition it is, but I know they can still shoot very well much longer than that, and that was the point of my post.
Larry seemed to me to be unsure and possibly a bit new at the long range game, so to get the full picture wanted to point out that the barrel will not be totalled at 1200 like many seem to think.
Is Larry in the top 10 ranking for 1000 yard competition, I don't think so, but may be wrong. I would think if this was the case he would not be looking for info on this caliber, his experience then would dictate choice already.
Larry, my apologies if I interpretted your post incorrectly.
Windborne True you will get more barrel life from the 6.5x55, but to burn out a barrel in 700 rnds sufficiently to make it not useful , makes me wonder about other factors not being disclosed.
KK
My read of Larrys post is that he is relatively new to reloading, which with a 6.5x284 is must do, due to the lack of commercial ammo, and even if factory ammo was available , any competitive nature is then lost.
Would I enter a seroius competition with a barrel with 2500 rounds plus through it? No. But is it totally shot out like eveyone claims? NO
I can still make the chucks VERY nervous with this "shot out barrel"
I would venture that any serious competitive shooter in the top ranking changes out barrels more frequently than is maybe totally required , but it can make a difference to ranking and it is hard to make up for losses.
I just get annoyed that there is so much BS about this caliber being such a barrel burner. Is it any worse than 7WSM or 6.5 WSM ? Not likely.
It is accurate, that is well documented, it has light recoil, this is documented, does it burn barrels faster than some? Possibly but to state that the barrel is totally done for use in 1200 rnds I think is wrong. Maybe for full out competition it is, but I know they can still shoot very well much longer than that, and that was the point of my post.
Larry seemed to me to be unsure and possibly a bit new at the long range game, so to get the full picture wanted to point out that the barrel will not be totalled at 1200 like many seem to think.
Is Larry in the top 10 ranking for 1000 yard competition, I don't think so, but may be wrong. I would think if this was the case he would not be looking for info on this caliber, his experience then would dictate choice already.
Larry, my apologies if I interpretted your post incorrectly.
Windborne True you will get more barrel life from the 6.5x55, but to burn out a barrel in 700 rnds sufficiently to make it not useful , makes me wonder about other factors not being disclosed.
KK
I'm sure there's a bunch of guys who do take barrels with 700 rounds on them into important matches... maybe whumped a bunch of us with them too...
it's not written in stone... like the 701th bullet is going to magically drop out the sky at 950 yards...
there are a huge number of variables working in what we do... such things as quality of barrel, how fast it's being shot on a continual basis as in paired shooting or single stringing... or worse still a 60 rounds match where you go at it for 30-45 minutes (some 300 yards matches are like this)...but that's 300 not 1000... and the barrel really heats up... there's a lotta stress going on in the steel... but is it as much heat and stress as when they stress relieve a barrel? I wonder... ok maybe it got nothing to do with the barrel and a little bit to do with where the bullet starts printing? bedding issues? the 1000 yard BR guys sure whip em downrange in what 1 minute for 10-15 shots... minute and half? seen those groups? whoa... so does shooting it fast and really heating it up hurt anything... dunno...
how hot you're making the load and how close you are to the top of the envelop say pressure wise... which means more heat generated, more cracking...
how often you clean, some clean up better than others, certainly customs clean up better, quicker in most cases... less copper fouling...
I'm sure there's some who'll also rebore the barrel as in borescope it... and decide they can cut a couple inches off the rear and rechamber and recrown... this might get you cooking again for X number of rounds... now whether it's a good thing to do it can be debated... because the cost technically would be the same as if you chambered a new barrel, same amount of work goes into that smithwise but it might be something for a newbie to consider... how much of a change in where the bullet impact moves or a change to the load depends... let's say there will be some kind of change... velocities are going to sink...
I remember a story where a smith using a borescope mumbled something about "memories of rifling"... or when you setback a rifle barrel it should end up longer than what's found on a 6-shooter.
If Larry's been reloading for 3 years can we assume he's got the basics down for a powder/primer/bullet combination as in making consistent good rounds/reloads?
Do we want to tell him about tight neck chambers, fitted chambers, SAAMI chambers... neck turning brass... some swear by it... and these decisions need to be taken into consideration when chambering up a rig...
anybody competing and winning in f-class isn't using a factory load
for competitive target shooting a 6.5/284 barrel is going to give up sooner than most... but they're great to shoot!... what you do with it afterwards... well tomatoes love 'em!
it's not written in stone... like the 701th bullet is going to magically drop out the sky at 950 yards...
there are a huge number of variables working in what we do... such things as quality of barrel, how fast it's being shot on a continual basis as in paired shooting or single stringing... or worse still a 60 rounds match where you go at it for 30-45 minutes (some 300 yards matches are like this)...but that's 300 not 1000... and the barrel really heats up... there's a lotta stress going on in the steel... but is it as much heat and stress as when they stress relieve a barrel? I wonder... ok maybe it got nothing to do with the barrel and a little bit to do with where the bullet starts printing? bedding issues? the 1000 yard BR guys sure whip em downrange in what 1 minute for 10-15 shots... minute and half? seen those groups? whoa... so does shooting it fast and really heating it up hurt anything... dunno...
how hot you're making the load and how close you are to the top of the envelop say pressure wise... which means more heat generated, more cracking...
how often you clean, some clean up better than others, certainly customs clean up better, quicker in most cases... less copper fouling...
I'm sure there's some who'll also rebore the barrel as in borescope it... and decide they can cut a couple inches off the rear and rechamber and recrown... this might get you cooking again for X number of rounds... now whether it's a good thing to do it can be debated... because the cost technically would be the same as if you chambered a new barrel, same amount of work goes into that smithwise but it might be something for a newbie to consider... how much of a change in where the bullet impact moves or a change to the load depends... let's say there will be some kind of change... velocities are going to sink...
I remember a story where a smith using a borescope mumbled something about "memories of rifling"... or when you setback a rifle barrel it should end up longer than what's found on a 6-shooter.
If Larry's been reloading for 3 years can we assume he's got the basics down for a powder/primer/bullet combination as in making consistent good rounds/reloads?
Do we want to tell him about tight neck chambers, fitted chambers, SAAMI chambers... neck turning brass... some swear by it... and these decisions need to be taken into consideration when chambering up a rig...
anybody competing and winning in f-class isn't using a factory load
for competitive target shooting a 6.5/284 barrel is going to give up sooner than most... but they're great to shoot!... what you do with it afterwards... well tomatoes love 'em!
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
In case there are newbies reading this and horrified by the cost of barrel replacements needed, I can say from alot of experience that quality barrels shoot very competitively well beyond 700rds in most any cartridge used today.
I spent a very nice day plinking at a 6" rock at 1000m with my 6.5 Mystic with a barrel count of 900rds (it was windy too). The throat has moved a whopping 20thou since new. I think this barrel has a few more rds to send accurately down range.
There are many stories of shooters swapping barrels out when rd counts reach a certain point. For them, they have the resources to make that happen. however, having inherited some of these barrels, I can say with certainty, they still shoot.
A barrel is worn out when it no longer holds the highest scoring ring. Plain and simple. That might be 700rds, that might be 5000rds (talk to a 30BR shooter).
Ultimately, it comes down to testing and confidence. If the rifle is consistently accurate enough to be competitive, the shooter has to learn to shoot to the accuracy of the rifle. And there in lies the problem.
There are a whole lot more accurate rifles then there are shooters. The further out we go, the more obvious that becomes.
Once a bullet is stable and flying accurately at say 300m, they simply fly accurately as far as we compete (1000m being the furthest shot in Canada). There are only one or two 30 cal bullets which can face stability issues that far out. Every other 6mm to 7mm bullet used in LR shooting will go well past the KM before anything mechanically bad happens.
Accurate rifles don't go bad after a certain distance. Just shooters miss alot of changing conditions and simply make mistakes. A miss read of 2 MPH of wind will still allow the bullet to score at say 600m. Take them same miss read and you are dropping points at 900m.
For any wanting to compete in say F class, the most important thing is consistency. The rifle/load must shoot to the same level of accuracy no matter the conditions or rd count. Once you have that confidence in your rifle, you as a shooter, need to learn to drive the rifle.
There are precious few LR shooting sports which can't be won even at the National level, by a rifle that shoots 100% of the time into 1/2 MOA. The biggest variable is still the shooter. Although we rarely like to admit it.
So if weighing primers, trimming bullet tips, swapping barrels after so many rds is what it takes to give you the mental confidence to do well, go for it.
For me, I will just have to concentrate a little harder and learn how to read the conditions that much better.....seems to be working.
Jerry
I spent a very nice day plinking at a 6" rock at 1000m with my 6.5 Mystic with a barrel count of 900rds (it was windy too). The throat has moved a whopping 20thou since new. I think this barrel has a few more rds to send accurately down range.
There are many stories of shooters swapping barrels out when rd counts reach a certain point. For them, they have the resources to make that happen. however, having inherited some of these barrels, I can say with certainty, they still shoot.
A barrel is worn out when it no longer holds the highest scoring ring. Plain and simple. That might be 700rds, that might be 5000rds (talk to a 30BR shooter).
Ultimately, it comes down to testing and confidence. If the rifle is consistently accurate enough to be competitive, the shooter has to learn to shoot to the accuracy of the rifle. And there in lies the problem.
There are a whole lot more accurate rifles then there are shooters. The further out we go, the more obvious that becomes.
Once a bullet is stable and flying accurately at say 300m, they simply fly accurately as far as we compete (1000m being the furthest shot in Canada). There are only one or two 30 cal bullets which can face stability issues that far out. Every other 6mm to 7mm bullet used in LR shooting will go well past the KM before anything mechanically bad happens.
Accurate rifles don't go bad after a certain distance. Just shooters miss alot of changing conditions and simply make mistakes. A miss read of 2 MPH of wind will still allow the bullet to score at say 600m. Take them same miss read and you are dropping points at 900m.
For any wanting to compete in say F class, the most important thing is consistency. The rifle/load must shoot to the same level of accuracy no matter the conditions or rd count. Once you have that confidence in your rifle, you as a shooter, need to learn to drive the rifle.
There are precious few LR shooting sports which can't be won even at the National level, by a rifle that shoots 100% of the time into 1/2 MOA. The biggest variable is still the shooter. Although we rarely like to admit it.
So if weighing primers, trimming bullet tips, swapping barrels after so many rds is what it takes to give you the mental confidence to do well, go for it.
For me, I will just have to concentrate a little harder and learn how to read the conditions that much better.....seems to be working.
Jerry
Good post Jerry, +1. - dan
windborne11
Regular
- Location
- SW Ontario
Larry, with the budget you have to work with, why not start off right away with 2 barrels. At 1000 rds switch barrels, and have the first barrel setback.larry fraser said:
Shorten each end about an inch and you will be good for another 800 or so.
No downtime that way. No worries.
John is right about picking the 6.5 x 284. Can't dispute the fact that it wins. The new 7mm's are still in the experimentation stage. Under the right conditions they will shoot inside a 6.5. However the 6.5 is very good at all long ranges, 300 and up.
The 7mm has to beat the 6.5's. Until it does so consistantly the 6.5 will remain the King.
The other consideration you should have though is saddle time. Until you can read the wind, and what it does to your bullets, the most accurate rifle in the world won't make a winner. Sure helps though.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I wonder if Larry has spent much time investigating the 6mm's????
Some very interesting new wildcats and bullets. Just not readily available in Canada yet...
Jerry
Some very interesting new wildcats and bullets. Just not readily available in Canada yet...
Jerry
I have a Smith 6.5 barrel lounging in my basement. I have been considering building a 6.5-06 but keep waffling on the idea. Not sure what I want to do with this barrel. Basically I am a varmint hunter at heart and I can't get past the thought that a 6.5-06 is a might too much case for a varmint rig.
So do I go to a smaller 6.5 case or get rid of the barrel and go to a 6BR or even a .223? Decisions decisions.
So do I go to a smaller 6.5 case or get rid of the barrel and go to a 6BR or even a .223? Decisions decisions.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
As a varmint cal, the 6mm is hard to beat. The 87gr Vmax flies so well out to 800yds from a 6BR. Cheap, low recoil, easy on barrels. From a 243, it just sings at 3300fps.
Of course, there are similar options with the 6.5. Any med case 6.5 will work very well and easier on the throats then the 6.5-06. I think the 6.5 Mystic and Swede are two of the most effective case volumes for this cal. The 260R works great too.
22cal also can work but not as effective as a match cal.
Yes, lots to choose from...
Jerry
Of course, there are similar options with the 6.5. Any med case 6.5 will work very well and easier on the throats then the 6.5-06. I think the 6.5 Mystic and Swede are two of the most effective case volumes for this cal. The 260R works great too.
22cal also can work but not as effective as a match cal.
Yes, lots to choose from...
Jerry
Thats exactly my problem. I already have a 6BR based wildcat which I shoot 70gr Nosler Ballistic Tips through. It shoots very well and positively explodes the gophers out to 250 yds or so. I just am not sure it would be worth building a 6.5 on a medium sized case when I already have a good 6mm varmint rig.
I also just bought a Savage 10FP in .223 so I now have two decent varmint rifles.
As we are on the topic anyone interested in a Smith 6.5mm 1:8 barrel?
thanks for the great info.I made a choice it's going to be the 6.5-284.I am not worried about berrel life.I do have a 300rum and 22-250 built buy the guy from southern Alberta.Mystic I have not done much research on the 6mm's.I also know that this rifle i am going to get built is going to shoot much better than I.But like mystic stated before study the wind and mirage and practice.I do shoot with a couple of very experienced guy.Catinthehat and Clint,they gave me alot of info on reloading,what works and the how too. So once again thanks for the info.
