What's a good first pistol

I saved a LOT of mony buying from a commercial reloader (Custom Reloading Services) over the years. The prices were usually about 2/3'rds of the factory ammo prices for 9mm, and the quality is excellent. I only got into reloading myself recently so I could tailor my ammo for IPSC matches, but otherwise I would still be buying their stuff. I chrono'd some of their stuff along with some American Eagle to benchmark against my own reloads. The ammo from Custom Reloading Services actually had a smaller Avg Deviation then the American Eagle, and sadly much more consistent than mine. But I`m working on that :)

luckey said:
no need to go hostile and insulting. I gave out my recommendation based on real world, practical experience. Nothing sketchy at all. On the other hand, what you just said "buy factory" will cost people more money.

When I said "shoot reload", I meant "buy reloaded ammo". not only as a common sense, 9mm is NOT worth reloading, but also when considering the labor cost(which many don't care/count), to me personally, it's not even worth reloading 40 and 45 unless I have the full auto loading with a few hundred to 1000-round/hour productivity. Right now I am buying very good reloaded ammo from a few different sites(they are the sponsors here). 40 and 45 are easier for me, 9mm is tougher but can be found(I am an extreme cheapstake who is looking for the cheapest). While factory ammo is generally good(not 100% though, remember the winchester batch issue popped up a while ago?), it's just too expensive. I haven't had any issue with the reload I bought, so I highly recommended it. Besides, in my club, all the club guns are using reload without any issue. So, I don't understand why while you encourage people to shoot more, you only tell them to buy factory ammo which is wasting money and eventually practice less.

Other than this, anything else "sketchy" in my post regarding the change kit or conversion barrel? Being in something much longer than others, it doesn't mean you would always be right and know more than others. I know that through my career in IT where things change every minute, sometimes new guys will know more than a seasoned IT manager. so I always tell myself to focus on the facts, rather than just looking at the mileage. I will leave it just like that.
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luckey said:
no need to go hostile and insulting. I gave out my recommendation based on real world, practical experience. Nothing sketchy at all. On the other hand, what you just said "buy factory" will cost people more money.

When I said "shoot reload", I meant "buy reloaded ammo". not only as a common sense, 9mm is NOT worth reloading, but also when considering the labor cost(which many don't care/count), to me personally, it's not even worth reloading 40 and 45 unless I have the full auto loading with a few hundred to 1000-round/hour productivity. Right now I am buying very good reloaded ammo from a few different sites(they are the sponsors here). 40 and 45 are easier for me, 9mm is tougher but can be found(I am an extreme cheapstake who is looking for the cheapest). While factory ammo is generally good(not 100% though, remember the winchester batch issue popped up a while ago?), it's just too expensive. I haven't had any issue with the reload I bought, so I highly recommended it. Besides, in my club, all the club guns are using reload without any issue. So, I don't understand why while you encourage people to shoot more, you only tell them to buy factory ammo which is wasting money and eventually practice less.

Other than this, anything else "sketchy" in my post regarding the change kit or conversion barrel? Being in something much longer than others, it doesn't mean you would always be right and know more than others. I know that through my career in IT where things change every minute, sometimes new guys will know more than a seasoned IT manager. so I always tell myself to focus on the facts, rather than just looking at the mileage. I will leave it just like that.
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You don't have a lot of friends in the real world.
 
Technically you are absolutely right because I am very serious about the word "friend". The ones I do have, are all life-long friends regardless distances and times apart.
If one can't even man up, take up the simple facts during a discussion and have to be all personal, I don't want anything to do with them, real world or not.
Well, I guess now we are all being ridiculously off the topic, aren't we?

Let's take a break, enjoy the weekend. Can't wait to go to range again on Sunday. MP40 & SR1911 this time. Itchy... :)

KDX said:
You don't have a lot of friends in the real world.
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Says the guy who admittedly has no experience, but does read books and watch videos.:rolleyes:
 
I agree with the guy who said he'd be left un-satisfied with the .22.

9mm is a great calibre, still relatively cheap to shoot a lot of if you buy in bulk when it's cheap.

Hand guns are like airplanes & cars: start with its "mission" to narrow down the choices, and then pick the one that fits you best.

My "mission"? I like to go out once a month, burn 200 rounds, make sure I can keep it all on a paper plate at 5-15 yards. Nothing complicated, just lots and lots of practice putting rounds on a paper plate. If I can dump a mag into an 8" circle from 10 yards on the first draw, in 5 seconds, I'm happy. You may have loftier aspirations...

I don't want to compete with the run & gun guys, I don't need to put a whole mag into one hole, I just want to be able to pull it out of the holster, deliver lead on steel, and put it back in the holster with a fresh mag ready to go.

The H&K fit my hand best, but operating the safety/decocker is too much for me to keep front of mind if I'm stressed. Maybe if I could go out two or three times a week for a few months it would be different, but that's not an option. Whatever I train myself for, I want to do it the same way every time.

The CZ85 is gorgeous and super-accurate, but I'm not going to re-holster a cocked gun and relying only on a single manual safety (and I don't want to do a two-handed manual de-#### with no safety). I probably would rely on a quality 1911's manual and beavertail safety, but then I'm back to a manual safety, and .45acp generally costs a lot more than 9mm.

I love the SIGs, but even a SA/DA decocker is one order of magnitude too-complicated. Which is the same reason I keep to a level-1-retention holster: KISS principle. I want something that shoots without me thinking too hard. Or at all, actually. Reflex and practice is better than stopping and thinking, in my book.

At one session a month, I don't have enough time to train myself around the gadget parts of a gun, and for me, "smooth" under stress is the only way to go if I'm hand-gunning on limited training time.

And when you get right down to it, who among us has all the ammo and training time we would like to have?

So that leaves me with the striker-fired guns. Of the strikers, all of them are accurate enough for me, and they all cost substantial but not un-affordable money. The M&P9 is perfectly serviceable - my buddies have them and I liked them when I tried them out. The Springfield XD appealed because it was dummy-proof *and* had a grip safety, but they are a bit scarce here in Canada. The Ruger SR9 caught my eye because it's a Ruger and it's invariably cheap ('two is one'), but in the end I liked the idea of going compact, I liked the idea of a big selection of holsters to play with, and I liked the first Glock 19 I tried.

Since every Glock is the same as every other Glock, I stuck with it. Yes, I guess it makes me "one of those guys", but I have yet to buy the t-shirt, if that makes any difference. Hey, I'm a happy guy every time I put the first magazine load downrange. In fact, I love my G19 so much, I bought a second one. No need for jazzy custom stuff, though maybe one day I'll upgrade the sights to tritium, but that'll do me. Now I find myself looking for a G23, just `cause.

Your results may vary. Good luck on the search.
 
Please do your own math.

Brass+powder+primer+bullet+labor. By the time you are done, for 9mm, it's usually more expensive than buying from a commercial reloader.

Remember, do NOT take the post out of context, my reply was purely based on dollar value, then the conclusion.

If reloading itself, is a hobby or for extreme percision shooting, then it's worth, but already off the topic of this thread. So it's all about context, not just pick out one piece I said and try to hammer it. Did you see I even said "to me, 40 and 45 are not even worth", simply because I don't do percision shoot and rather spend that valuable time with family and friends which makes the labor part more expensive. Hence the context.


4n2t0 said:
Says who?
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well, i reload 9 for about a third of what it cost to purchase from a commercial reloader...and if you run 10 000 rounds a year or so, yeah, it makes sense to reload.

I'm not hostile or insulting yet. Not worth it on the internet. But your making the mistake of taking examples from your very limited experience and creating sweeping generalizations that you then toss out as advice. You do a disservice to yourself because it makes you look knowledgeable. But that is the joy of the internet i suppose. Anyone can type and post what they choose. Have at er.
 
luckey said:
Please do your own math.

Brass+powder+primer+bullet+labor. By the time you are done, for 9mm, it's usually more expensive than buying from a commercial reloader.

Remember, do NOT take the post out of context, my reply was purely based on dollar value, then the conclusion.

If reloading itself, is a hobby or for extreme percision shooting, then it's worth, but already off the topic of this thread. So it's all about context, not just pick out one piece I said and try to hammer it. Did you see I even said "to me, 40 and 45 are not even worth", simply because I don't do percision shoot and rather spend that valuable time with family and friends which makes the labor part more expensive. Hence the context.
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brass (free)+powder ($40 per lb.)+primers ($30 per 1K)+projectiles ($100 per 1K)+labour (free)= $170 per 1K (give or take a little).

You can get commercial reloads for under $170? Please tell us where because I buy CRS @ $250 per 1K and BDX @ $270 per 1K (and those are great prices for those products).

At $100+ per hour you must really value your time or have an inflated sense of self, LMAO!
 
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If he's read it on the internet it must be true, unless it doesn't jive with his preconceived notions.
 
4n2t0 said:
brass (free)+powder ($40 per lb.)+primers ($30 per 1K)+projectiles ($100 per 1K)+labour (free)= $170 per 1K (give or take a little).

You can get commercial reloads for under $170? Please tell us where because I buy CRS @ $250 per 1K and BDX @ $270 per 1K (and those are great prices for those products).

At $100+ per hour you must really value your time or have an inflated sense of self, LMAO!
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And that's assuming plated projectiles....i pick up cast at (last batch) 23.50 for 500 lubed and sized. So knock another 50 bucks off.....yeah they smoke a bit, but shoot every bit as straight.
 
Good job checking a few out. If you like the Sig 226, buy the p226 Classic in .22. Then you can buy a calibre xchange kit and use the same pistol for 9mm.

For whatever reason it's almost $150 cheaper to get the .22 the buy the 9mm slide rather than go the other way around...

Have fun!
 
well, this would be my absolutely last reply because I think it becomes pointless if people keep ignoring the context and just try to cheat their way to win an argument.

to reiterate, the CONTEXT for all this is for all the newbies IN GENERAL(yes, hence the generalization) who just got into this sport. Under this context, all my replies/comments comes down to this, "UNLESS you are taking on reload from the get-go as a hobby and/or for percision shooting, purely dollar wise, it's NOT worth reloading 9mm. just buy quality reload from any of the site sponsor here, or any local store you know/trust, AND buy in bulk which would be cheaper a little bit(not much due to the weak dollar right now) and as a buffer to counter any potential shortage as you can plan ahead for the next purchase without running out completely". This is as general as it gets which is the idea.

then the details.

1. Free brass. yes, I think you and some may be able to get free brass for the rest of your life. However, it's NOT for every newbie for sure. So, for cost analysis, this MUST be included in the cost.
2. Free labor. as I said, if as a hobby and percision shooting, it's nothing, hence the "free labor" which could be your case and some others. However, under the context, you cannot say this is true for everyone. So, labor MUST be added as well. AGAIN, JUST TO MAKE SURE YOU DON'T IGNORE WHAT I SAID AND TRY TO CHEAT YOUR WAY OUT, EXCEPT YOU DO RELOAD FOR HOBBY AND PERCISION SHOOT, the labor cost would generally be one's contract work rate because you are not doing reloading during work hours. say a police office who may be making $40/hour, his/her contract rate is $200/hour(again read that on news and sunshine list), so, would he/she be rather doing the OT, than doing the reloading. If he/she do the reload anyway, should their labor cost be $200/hour? This stays true for any profession. It's called "Opportunity Cost"(google it if you don't know what that is). Of course, most of the professions have a 1.5x to 2x OT / contract rate. If you couldn't understand that, the only positive thing I would say to you is that you may be still very young and in the very early stage of your career. Then the joke is on you.

if you still think the labor is free under the context I mentioned, then just like I said, you are cheating to win an argument. As for how much my time is worth, it's between CRA and me. One thing I can tell you is that I don't have to lie to gain respect in either virutal or real world. That would be just pitiful. That's all I can and will say in this thread.


4n2t0 said:
brass (free)+powder ($40 per lb.)+primers ($30 per 1K)+projectiles ($100 per 1K)+labour (free)= $170 per 1K (give or take a little).

You can get commercial reloads for under $170? Please tell us where because I buy CRS @ $250 per 1K and BDX @ $270 per 1K (and those are great prices for those products).

At $100+ per hour you must really value your time or have an inflated sense of self, LMAO!
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luckey said:
well, this would be my absolutely last reply because I think it becomes pointless if people keep ignoring the context and just try to cheat their way to win an argument.
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Heh, no one is "cheating" to win an argument. You're just wrong about the issue, and its as simple as that.

to reiterate, the CONTEXT for all this is for all the newbies IN GENERAL(yes, hence the generalization) who just got into this sport. Under this context, all my replies/comments comes down to this, "UNLESS you are taking on reload from the get-go as a hobby and/or for percision shooting, purely dollar wise, it's NOT worth reloading 9mm.
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You don't have to (1) reload as a hobby (in itself) or (2) reload to try and achieve some kind of uber precision, in order to make it cost effective. Not at all. You're wrong again.

1. Free brass. yes, I think you and some may be able to get free brass for the rest of your life. However, it's NOT for every newbie for sure. So, for cost analysis, this MUST be included in the cost.
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9mm brass ("range brass") is pretty easy to find on most any shooting range. Moreover, if you bought factory ammo or the empty brass to start with, you can keep that brass and keep reloading it. Wowsers. So, factor in the cost of brass if you want, at least initially, but its still less expensive to reload than to buy factory ammo.

2. Free labor. as I said, if as a hobby and percision shooting, it's nothing, hence the "free labor" which could be your case and some others. However, under the context, you cannot say this is true for everyone. So, labor MUST be added as well.
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This makes zero sense. Do you invoice yourself for watching TV or reading a book? Sure, everyone's time is valuable, but if you're reloading, you are working for YOURSELF. And you can save money that way.
 
Don't even bother CV32, Another addition to the ignore list, lol.
 
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asking what is a good pistol to buy is on the same level as asking what kind of tattoo you should get. Do some research go to gun stores hold them find what fits your ergonomic needs best. Dont give money to Norinco.
 
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