What's CQB in Service Rifle Comp?
- Thread starter ton45
- Start date
From what little I know, you start out with 4, 5 round mags and do an advance then fire, double tapping each target.
Start at like the 30 yard I think. Move in to 5 yards, in 5 yard increments, doing mag changes as appropriate and double tapping each time. You are timed 10 seconds to move from each firing point to the next and fire your 4 rounds.
I think that's right... Sure someone will correct me if it aint.
Start at like the 30 yard I think. Move in to 5 yards, in 5 yard increments, doing mag changes as appropriate and double tapping each time. You are timed 10 seconds to move from each firing point to the next and fire your 4 rounds.
I think that's right... Sure someone will correct me if it aint.
NavyShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- XMU Local .303
I think Barney had a course of fire setup, lemme look see what I can track down, basically it moved from 100M up to 10M.
NavyShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- XMU Local .303
Here's some of the blurb I got:
Plink - You were right on. This match is one of a series which may be used in a CQB competition. Practiced this particular match a number of times last weekend.
A scenario might be to start with a zero check at 100m prone. Followed by a 100m rapid fire match, standing to prone, 5 rounds at each of 2 fig.11 targets. Then a series of other matches using different positions, snaps, etc.
A scenario might be to start with a zero check at 100m prone. Followed by a 100m rapid fire match, standing to prone, 5 rounds at each of 2 fig.11 targets. Then a series of other matches using different positions, snaps, etc.
I got a course of fire somewhere tucked away in my STRIKE vest from last fall in Connaught where we shot a 75m to 50m Advance and fire. We did some snap and rapid fire matches at 50m and 75m. Then we carried on with the Advance and fire just like it was described above.
Most exciting with the magazine changes, after all, the magazine changes are a fundamental marksmanship skill required by our operators (trigger pullers, I mean) on their deployment to Azzkrakistan.
Now currently, TimK and I are working in a transition phase to switch to secondary means (pistol or PDW). Some of our obstacles include:
* potential loaded rifle on ONE point sling pointing at toes (unsafe practice)
* dangerous swinging of rifle/carbines into weak hand and pointing across the line of advance
* momentum of match is lost when entire advancing line has to wait to clear primary (rifle/carbine) and then draw from holster, load , and ready.
* CF doctrine hardly allows drawing a loaded sidearm from the holster in matches. Please.... let's not go there...
* AS an RSO, FPO or Match Director, I'm still overly safety conscious during the transition period. Remember that I'm trying to help design or think through a CQB match on a rectangular range. Please, don't give me any JTF2 suggestions from Classified AAR's since they only serve to remind us that I insist on a wider margin of safety for my matches (Operational Shooting Assoc.)
Get the discussion going.... productively anyways....
Most exciting with the magazine changes, after all, the magazine changes are a fundamental marksmanship skill required by our operators (trigger pullers, I mean) on their deployment to Azzkrakistan.
Now currently, TimK and I are working in a transition phase to switch to secondary means (pistol or PDW). Some of our obstacles include:
* potential loaded rifle on ONE point sling pointing at toes (unsafe practice)
* dangerous swinging of rifle/carbines into weak hand and pointing across the line of advance
* momentum of match is lost when entire advancing line has to wait to clear primary (rifle/carbine) and then draw from holster, load , and ready.
* CF doctrine hardly allows drawing a loaded sidearm from the holster in matches. Please.... let's not go there...
* AS an RSO, FPO or Match Director, I'm still overly safety conscious during the transition period. Remember that I'm trying to help design or think through a CQB match on a rectangular range. Please, don't give me any JTF2 suggestions from Classified AAR's since they only serve to remind us that I insist on a wider margin of safety for my matches (Operational Shooting Assoc.)
Get the discussion going.... productively anyways....
NavyShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- XMU Local .303
Instead of a full transition, perhaps simply grounding the arms, then drawing pistols?
If no-one's touching the rifles, then they can't really go off, can they?
It's been a while since I saw a rifle fire on it's own....
Once the pistol phase is done, clear all pistols, re-holster, then move back under control to the rifles, pick up ensemble and clear together?
Just an idea....
NS
If no-one's touching the rifles, then they can't really go off, can they?
It's been a while since I saw a rifle fire on it's own....
Once the pistol phase is done, clear all pistols, re-holster, then move back under control to the rifles, pick up ensemble and clear together?
Just an idea....
NS
- Location
- land of f-cktards
I think most of us understand that one sigh.
did you guys do a two man team match ?
then i guess the SAF-T considerations would put that out the window also
hmmmmn what about a shot gun match ?????
You should not have the muzzle pointing at your toes if you do it properly-use a two pt or 3t. Actually, instead of slinging-since most army guys don't put sling on anyways(the issue sling is not designed for this kind of applicaiton), hold onto the rifle with the weakhand, muzzle up, draw pistol with strong hand.
If you jsut drop the rifle (with a 2pt or 3 pt sling on, you guide it down, but not swinging) it will not sweep the person next to it. THis is not a ninja samurai move. This is not something you should learn the first time in a match-this is a drill, repeat repeat and repeat again until you are proficient.
Most reserve soldiers are not trained to do transition drill within the system. THey don't hve the proper holster for transition drill. And most don't carry pistol anyways, you might as well just tell them to do speed reload. (drop mag instead of anally stuffing them back into the vest. ) Rifle is the main weapon, only draw pistol when it is close or the rifle could not be cleared. IMHO, the pistol is a 15 yard weapon. There is no point of wasting time on shooting that thing at 30yrds-at 30yrds shoot the rifle, do something else or bug out if the other side is shooting rifles!
If you jsut drop the rifle (with a 2pt or 3 pt sling on, you guide it down, but not swinging) it will not sweep the person next to it. THis is not a ninja samurai move. This is not something you should learn the first time in a match-this is a drill, repeat repeat and repeat again until you are proficient.
Most reserve soldiers are not trained to do transition drill within the system. THey don't hve the proper holster for transition drill. And most don't carry pistol anyways, you might as well just tell them to do speed reload. (drop mag instead of anally stuffing them back into the vest. ) Rifle is the main weapon, only draw pistol when it is close or the rifle could not be cleared. IMHO, the pistol is a 15 yard weapon. There is no point of wasting time on shooting that thing at 30yrds-at 30yrds shoot the rifle, do something else or bug out if the other side is shooting rifles!
10 seconds to advance 5 meters to fire 4 rounds is pretty slow at 30 yars. Fire 6 rounds in 10 seconds, 2 standing, 2 kneeling and 2 prone at 50m should be the standard. 5 yards of advance is kinda useless. firing 5 rounds while advancing from 15 yrds to 5 yards should be a more achieveable for most guys. When people are getting more proficient, then it can be pushed back to 20 and 25.
IMHO, shooting prone at 100yrds is pretty useless since Belly shooting is covered to death at 300m already, there is no difference between belly shooting at 100 and 300. Drop to the kneel and fire 2 rounds in 3.5seconds is more useful. Do it twice, run to 50 yards to fire 6 rounds, 2 standing, 2 prone and 2 kneeling. Run to 25 yards, do controlled pairs in 2 seconds X2. Run to 15 yards, do kneeling with both knees, 2 rounds in 1.5s. 2X. Advance and fire from 15 to 7 yards. At 7 yards, instinctive shooting, 2 rounds in 1 sec. 3 seconds to reload in between.
And wear flak jackets....
IMHO, shooting prone at 100yrds is pretty useless since Belly shooting is covered to death at 300m already, there is no difference between belly shooting at 100 and 300. Drop to the kneel and fire 2 rounds in 3.5seconds is more useful. Do it twice, run to 50 yards to fire 6 rounds, 2 standing, 2 prone and 2 kneeling. Run to 25 yards, do controlled pairs in 2 seconds X2. Run to 15 yards, do kneeling with both knees, 2 rounds in 1.5s. 2X. Advance and fire from 15 to 7 yards. At 7 yards, instinctive shooting, 2 rounds in 1 sec. 3 seconds to reload in between.
And wear flak jackets....
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- Location
- Southern Ontario
transtion's
I've seen in a three gun match form the state's that they are letting them deposit the loaded rifle safed into a container before transtioning to the handgun!
The conatiner was a plastic 50 gal drum lined with carpet to protect your rifle and the barrel was angle toward the ground!
They used to have to unload ,lock open ,and place on table! This seemed to really speed up transtion time quite a bit!
I know that three gun is not the same type of competition but the idea I think is sound!
I've seen in a three gun match form the state's that they are letting them deposit the loaded rifle safed into a container before transtioning to the handgun!
The conatiner was a plastic 50 gal drum lined with carpet to protect your rifle and the barrel was angle toward the ground!
They used to have to unload ,lock open ,and place on table! This seemed to really speed up transtion time quite a bit!
I know that three gun is not the same type of competition but the idea I think is sound!
- Location
- Keswick, Ontario
Soooo
With a one point sling (on my plate carrier) if I drop it, loaded, on safe, it's pointing right at my toes, but doesn't sweep anyone on either side or behind me, even when I am moving...
Is that GTG?
With a one point sling (on my plate carrier) if I drop it, loaded, on safe, it's pointing right at my toes, but doesn't sweep anyone on either side or behind me, even when I am moving...
Is that GTG?
- Location
- land of f-cktards
First I want to say I am thankful for hungry and others for taking steps this way maybe it will drag certain organizations kicking and screaming into they 21st century it seems too many people have this minimalist thinking ...."Thats they way grandpa did it "
green tips ....I hear what your saying and i like the way your thinking.
no kidding there is no point in carrying both if you don't know how to use them ........
gee and people were telling me i was crazy !
Now Hungry!!!!!!!! COOL MAtch IDEA here
......or Mr. Hungry
what about a shoot don't shoot course of Fire with different colored balloons on the targets .........eg shooter moving forward and a color is called ......"shoot" red or "shoot" blue, or "save" red "save" blue then your scored over time and loose points for a miss. heck you could even use more than 2 colors .......just not white, yellow, brown, or black .....for obvious reasons
The US is training like this
and for alot of the soldiers shooting these matches Target Discrimination is a handy skill.
you could also emloy a shotgun here (slugs )
green tips ....I hear what your saying and i like the way your thinking.
what about the patrol sling?
my team has started that BullSh!T this year ......now I won't shoot pistol .I don't shoot pistol anymore..with them ..all it is is not taking care of your kit and cleaning it ..I will not be infected with this LAMENESS
no kidding there is no point in carrying both if you don't know how to use them ........
gee and people were telling me i was crazy !
Now Hungry!!!!!!!! COOL MAtch IDEA here
......or Mr. Hungry
what about a shoot don't shoot course of Fire with different colored balloons on the targets .........eg shooter moving forward and a color is called ......"shoot" red or "shoot" blue, or "save" red "save" blue then your scored over time and loose points for a miss. heck you could even use more than 2 colors .......just not white, yellow, brown, or black .....for obvious reasons The US is training like this
and for alot of the soldiers shooting these matches Target Discrimination is a handy skill.
you could also emloy a shotgun here (slugs )
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Oh yes...the transition caveat.
This is were all that weeks of planning and the transition safety issues throws the whole plan out the window during the set up. Seen this often when we put together IPSC matches. Here is my input in this matter.
Since pistol transitions in combat will be most likely deployed during a rifle failure or a CQB room to room clearing, a likely scenario can be created by this event. This being a match were the proficiency with the transition is encouraged, simplifying the complexity by having an empty and cleared rifle shouldered then slung for the pistol transition is enough to make a point on the benefits of the drill.
So the requirements of the transition drill are:
- Range going hot, eyes and ears.
- Rifle proven empty no mag, open bolt.
- Make pistol loaded and ready, safety on, holster
- Ready position before signal, rifle shouldered, high ready, pointing downrange.
- On signal, sling rifle, draw pistol, engage target.
- On signal, cease firing, mag out, empty chamber, prove clear, drop hammer pointing down range, holster.
- Prove rifle safe.
- Score
- Done, simple
Do it at CQB ranges of 15, 10, 5 yards and always with mag changes.
Hope this helps the discussion?
Ton45
This is were all that weeks of planning and the transition safety issues throws the whole plan out the window during the set up. Seen this often when we put together IPSC matches. Here is my input in this matter.
Since pistol transitions in combat will be most likely deployed during a rifle failure or a CQB room to room clearing, a likely scenario can be created by this event. This being a match were the proficiency with the transition is encouraged, simplifying the complexity by having an empty and cleared rifle shouldered then slung for the pistol transition is enough to make a point on the benefits of the drill.
So the requirements of the transition drill are:
- Range going hot, eyes and ears.
- Rifle proven empty no mag, open bolt.
- Make pistol loaded and ready, safety on, holster
- Ready position before signal, rifle shouldered, high ready, pointing downrange.
- On signal, sling rifle, draw pistol, engage target.
- On signal, cease firing, mag out, empty chamber, prove clear, drop hammer pointing down range, holster.
- Prove rifle safe.
- Score
- Done, simple
Do it at CQB ranges of 15, 10, 5 yards and always with mag changes.
Hope this helps the discussion?
Ton45
Most of the reservists are not trained to that standard within the system by regular programming, unless they are shooters outside of the system. . For the IPSC/IDPA guys, it is not an issue at all. all the courses outthere run hot ranges with loaded rifles,safety on and you don't sweep others......I will be very leery ( and wear my armour plates) among some reservists cpl and pte doing transition drill with only dp2A. When the entire line has the same competency level, it is absolutely safe to do so. We have done some courses with a certain reservist pte before in the US, he was not competent and he almost got kicked out. He did stupid #### like sweeping others and making ready behind the line.
I think people should stay focus on rifle first, before jumping to pistol. No offense, but I think the IPSC or IDPA qualification course is a good one to take before jumping to this transition thing. On top of that, in the grand scheme of things transition drill is only useful when someone carrys a pistol. The main tool is the rifle - lets get that done first. I will venture to say that taking the C9 to close range is probably more relevant than popping a pistol for most of the army. Now, for the naval shipboarding party it is a different story.
I think people should stay focus on rifle first, before jumping to pistol. No offense, but I think the IPSC or IDPA qualification course is a good one to take before jumping to this transition thing. On top of that, in the grand scheme of things transition drill is only useful when someone carrys a pistol. The main tool is the rifle - lets get that done first. I will venture to say that taking the C9 to close range is probably more relevant than popping a pistol for most of the army. Now, for the naval shipboarding party it is a different story.
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- Location
- land of f-cktards
Ton45
we did something similar las year for the NSCC matches but we did it with a blue rifle
Green tips I agree with you
regretably I put forth the idea for IPSC/IDPA courses and was told it wasn't safe enough for the military (yeah yeah I know) but until that olde way of thinking is changed nothing will .
thats why i have had it with pistol comps in uniform.
we did something similar las year for the NSCC matches but we did it with a blue rifle
Green tips I agree with you
regretably I put forth the idea for IPSC/IDPA courses and was told it wasn't safe enough for the military (yeah yeah I know) but until that olde way of thinking is changed nothing will .
thats why i have had it with pistol comps in uniform.
THe point of doing transition is to keep bullets going downrange at close range...., and you have to immediately keep up firing, say pushing through a hallway or something like that. Therefore, reasonable speed is pretty important. if you cannot go through the whole motion of dropping the rifle, unholster and fire, the drill is pretty useless.
THere is no way to get around this and do it half assedly for #### and giggle. A) You must be proficient with controlling your rifle B) You must be proficient with safely drawing and firing the pistol. c) you need to trust others on the line to have the same proficiency. This means if your organization cannot handle that, everyone should go back to A), B) and then C) to build up the skill before attempting. Right now, the service rifle format is pretty basic- it is no different from firing off the bench.
THere is no way to get around this and do it half assedly for #### and giggle. A) You must be proficient with controlling your rifle B) You must be proficient with safely drawing and firing the pistol. c) you need to trust others on the line to have the same proficiency. This means if your organization cannot handle that, everyone should go back to A), B) and then C) to build up the skill before attempting. Right now, the service rifle format is pretty basic- it is no different from firing off the bench.
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And that's the conclusion I'm leaning more and more towards, Greentips. I might not even consider this transition stuff in the future matches, for safety reasons. I'm the RSO, my call !! Yeeeha.... 
This is a great discussion, keep it going. There is some valuable information on what or how to do this safely.
My concern is that I would like to have the second relay clear the first shooting relay, but that could become too onerous. I'm trying to envision opportunities for ND's (undesired negligent discharges) during the clearing and transition period along the ENTIRE LINE.
This is a great discussion, keep it going. There is some valuable information on what or how to do this safely.My concern is that I would like to have the second relay clear the first shooting relay, but that could become too onerous. I'm trying to envision opportunities for ND's (undesired negligent discharges) during the clearing and transition period along the ENTIRE LINE.
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