Wheel weights hard on barrels?
- Thread starter Sharps '63
- Start date
- Location
- St. Paul AB
Shooting smokless in a Shiloh .50 cal. You ought to be horsewhipped. 
Just be wary of getting any zinc in the melt. Watch your temperature when melting down raw weights. Skim off whatever's left after 625 deg. F. There should be no leftover road grime after a good flux. We use beeswax, but there are other things that work.
In the end, your expert might have been trying to hoodwink you into giving up your wheelweights so he could have them all. HAHA It's what I would do.
For both of my Shilohs I use 1-30 tin/lead alloy I make from salvaged water pipe and roofing tin and buy tin in bar form. Next year, I may try to use 95-5 solder in place of straight tin.
Just be wary of getting any zinc in the melt. Watch your temperature when melting down raw weights. Skim off whatever's left after 625 deg. F. There should be no leftover road grime after a good flux. We use beeswax, but there are other things that work.
In the end, your expert might have been trying to hoodwink you into giving up your wheelweights so he could have them all. HAHA It's what I would do.
For both of my Shilohs I use 1-30 tin/lead alloy I make from salvaged water pipe and roofing tin and buy tin in bar form. Next year, I may try to use 95-5 solder in place of straight tin.
If wheelweights are so great, why do we go to the bother of using pure soft lead for our Minié bullets and other RPB BP rifles? And why do the manufacturers of these guns advise us to use 'pure soft lead'?
Why does Lyman, who know a thing or two about BP, also recommend the use of 'pure soft lead'? Or does it actually mean 'pure soft lead with 6% antimony to make it hard, plus a bit of tin and other stuff to make it flow better'?
I don't pretend to be any kind of an expert, since, as a newcomer to BP shooting [I only started in the late 1960's] I always try and use as pure and as soft a lead as I can in my BP revolvers. Trying to load a ball made with wheel-weight alloy such as that shot in any nitro revolver, is an exercise in straining not only your muscles, but the loading lever on the gun.
The same goes for my BP rifle shooting - for the Musketoon or 3-band Enfield - soft is good for expanding the base of the bullet into the rifling, as you all know After all, the real thing was never shot using wheelweight alloy, was it?
The Whitworth is a different matter, as the hex bullet is a mechanical fit into the hex bore, as intended by Joseph Whitworth when he designed it - it can be as hard as you like.
tac
Why does Lyman, who know a thing or two about BP, also recommend the use of 'pure soft lead'? Or does it actually mean 'pure soft lead with 6% antimony to make it hard, plus a bit of tin and other stuff to make it flow better'?
I don't pretend to be any kind of an expert, since, as a newcomer to BP shooting [I only started in the late 1960's] I always try and use as pure and as soft a lead as I can in my BP revolvers. Trying to load a ball made with wheel-weight alloy such as that shot in any nitro revolver, is an exercise in straining not only your muscles, but the loading lever on the gun.
The same goes for my BP rifle shooting - for the Musketoon or 3-band Enfield - soft is good for expanding the base of the bullet into the rifling, as you all know After all, the real thing was never shot using wheelweight alloy, was it?
The Whitworth is a different matter, as the hex bullet is a mechanical fit into the hex bore, as intended by Joseph Whitworth when he designed it - it can be as hard as you like.
tac
saskgunowner101
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- middle of Sask
noobs
Yup, you won't find too many folks shooting pure lead bullets out of their cartride rifles, although some do. I generally use 20:1 lead/ tin in my black powder cartridge rifles.
Bullets cast of wheel weights are one heck of a lot easier on your barrel than jacketed bullets.
Chris.
Bullets cast of wheel weights are one heck of a lot easier on your barrel than jacketed bullets.
Chris.
Most (actually all) the original larger black powder cartridges did not use pure lead, but usually used a mix of lead and tin, at least according to my 1896 copy of the Winchester catalogue, where the alloys for a large range of black powder cartridges are listed. Exceptions seemed to be pistol cartridges up to the 44-40, which all used pure lead.
Wheel weights of a good alloy are hard to come by as the phase out of lead continues. I am casting pure lead for cap and ball revolvers but with an 1873 SAA there is a leading problem so I am adding pewter which is >90% Tin and Antimony with traces of copper and possibly Lead.Tin is trading at about $8.50/Lb and can go as high as $14.75/Lb (U.S.). I am trying to find a source for Lead with 7% Antimony for casting .45 Colt bullets.
OK, why the big deal if a little bit of zinc manages to get mixed in with wheel weight mix???
It's hard but not harder than copper.
The minimal amounts that might get into the mix by accident/whatever, probably wouldn't even be noticeable.
The biggest thing with cast bullets is you want them to fit your bore properly and upset properly to engrave the lands for a good seal. That's the best way to get good accuracy and minimal if any damage to the bore.
Even paper patched bullets need to be able to upset.
Many early, original BP firearms have varying bore diameters, sometimes even in the same barrel.
Some firearms, like the Webley pistols and others were built with the idea of utilising more than one cartridge. Especially some military examples. Again, Webleys.
Many Webleys are marked with two different calibres that are safe to fire in the pistols.
Examples of this are found on some MkIII Webleys. I don't know about others. The MkIII pistol I have, is marked .476/.455, with a stamp of a "winged, hollow based bullet."
At first, I thought it was just decorative. It is actually the bullet shape suggested by Webley to use.
I was talking to a fellow recently that told me he had several original .476 and .455 cartridges that were military issue. He also told me that he had the Brinnell hardness tested and gave me a number my old brain promptly forgot. I do remember, it was substantially harder than pure lead.
The hollow based bullets also had plugs in their bases to help them expand into the lands from the pressure being generated behind them forcing the plug further into the base of the bullets, causing the skirts to flare.
This makes good sense, especially in revolvers. The gap between the cylinder and the barrel makes the pressure spike noticeably shorter than in a rifle, meaning the bullets need some help to upset.
It's hard but not harder than copper.
The minimal amounts that might get into the mix by accident/whatever, probably wouldn't even be noticeable.
The biggest thing with cast bullets is you want them to fit your bore properly and upset properly to engrave the lands for a good seal. That's the best way to get good accuracy and minimal if any damage to the bore.
Even paper patched bullets need to be able to upset.
Many early, original BP firearms have varying bore diameters, sometimes even in the same barrel.
Some firearms, like the Webley pistols and others were built with the idea of utilising more than one cartridge. Especially some military examples. Again, Webleys.
Many Webleys are marked with two different calibres that are safe to fire in the pistols.
Examples of this are found on some MkIII Webleys. I don't know about others. The MkIII pistol I have, is marked .476/.455, with a stamp of a "winged, hollow based bullet."
At first, I thought it was just decorative. It is actually the bullet shape suggested by Webley to use.
I was talking to a fellow recently that told me he had several original .476 and .455 cartridges that were military issue. He also told me that he had the Brinnell hardness tested and gave me a number my old brain promptly forgot. I do remember, it was substantially harder than pure lead.
The hollow based bullets also had plugs in their bases to help them expand into the lands from the pressure being generated behind them forcing the plug further into the base of the bullets, causing the skirts to flare.
This makes good sense, especially in revolvers. The gap between the cylinder and the barrel makes the pressure spike noticeably shorter than in a rifle, meaning the bullets need some help to upset.
I believe that you can buy a 7% antimony/lead alloy from Metalex in Richmond. I've bought pure lead there. You just need to be able to deal with big ingots.
Chris.
It takes a very small percentage of zinc and your nice pouring, easy to fill out molds, become unable to produce a usable bullet.
The descriptions I read say that the lead with zinc casts like oatmeal.
I'll let you, but I won't mix any into my lead pot, thanks.
Gotta use an alloy appropriate for what your use is. Soft pure lead can be rammed by hand, and expands nicely when used for hollow based bullets. Some guns need that. Harder alloys don't strip off the rifling, or leave honking smears of lead down the barrel when pushed harder than soft pure will take.
From pure soft lead all the way to pure linotype. Whatever works. I will track down some lino to make some bullets from, and am saving my pure for other use.
Wheel weight lead gets used a lot because it was cheap and available.
Adjust alloy as required.
Cheers
Trev
It takes a very small percentage of zinc and your nice pouring, easy to fill out molds, become unable to produce a usable bullet.
The descriptions I read say that the lead with zinc casts like oatmeal.
I'll let you, but I won't mix any into my lead pot, thanks.
Gotta use an alloy appropriate for what your use is. Soft pure lead can be rammed by hand, and expands nicely when used for hollow based bullets. Some guns need that. Harder alloys don't strip off the rifling, or leave honking smears of lead down the barrel when pushed harder than soft pure will take.
From pure soft lead all the way to pure linotype. Whatever works. I will track down some lino to make some bullets from, and am saving my pure for other use.
Wheel weight lead gets used a lot because it was cheap and available.
Adjust alloy as required.
Cheers
Trev
Thanks, I have always wondered why it was such a big deal. Makes sense.
I was just thinking that if a 2-3 ounce zinc weight happened to get into a five gallon bucket of wheel weights, it shouldn't really have any effect on the mix.
I guess I've been lucky so far.
I will be careful.
If you are not frying the melted weights with way too much heat, you have a pretty good chance of catching the zinc weights as they float on top with the clips.
Pretty good reason to watch the heat, and watch the rate you pound the weights into the pot when processing. Keeping the heat as close to the temperature you need, is a pretty good idea anyway.
Zinc is made out to be a boogeyman. But with the prices up, and availability down, for lead alloys, as well as the eventual removal of WW as a source of cheap to free alloy, guys are wanting to avoid it at all possible.
Some guys have experimented with a couple different methods of getting it out of their alloy, too. PITA.
Merry Christmas!
Cheers
Trev
For those who follow the theory that a softer material cannot possibly wear on a harder material - please explain the principle behind water jet tools used to cut steel plate... maybe it's "hard" water??
Yes, harder lead compounds might increase the rate of wear, but that is a relative term and hard to quantify. Maybe if many thousands of rounds of each were fired in identical barrels there might be measureable difference in wear. Maybe. How much is realitve to the actual bullet and barrel material, and the internal ballistics of that cartridge: friction, heat, pressure, combustion and chemical interaction, and velocity. In most cases it's probably not a serious consideration, but occasionally it is. The antique pistol barrels seem to made from VERY soft material in many cases.
Yes, harder lead compounds might increase the rate of wear, but that is a relative term and hard to quantify. Maybe if many thousands of rounds of each were fired in identical barrels there might be measureable difference in wear. Maybe. How much is realitve to the actual bullet and barrel material, and the internal ballistics of that cartridge: friction, heat, pressure, combustion and chemical interaction, and velocity. In most cases it's probably not a serious consideration, but occasionally it is. The antique pistol barrels seem to made from VERY soft material in many cases.
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