When is a cap-and-ball firearm "loaded?"

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BirdCity

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Been wondering when a cap-and-ball revolver would be considered "loaded" for transportation. Can I load the cylinder with powder and ball, and still be "unloaded" if there are no caps on the nipples?

Anyone have anything official from the CFP/RCMP on this?

Thanks!
 
I don't know what federal laws state but in BC any black powder firearm with a charge of black powder in the cylinder or bore is considered loaded for hunting purposes. There was a time when you could keep your BP rifle stuffed and legally transport it as long as an ignition source such as a cap or powder in the pan wasn't present.

Rumor has it that someone got one to fire with a lit cigarette just to prove it could be done and the law changed by the next season. To my knowledge it's still being enforced.

If someone has "credible" information stating otherwise I would appreciate anything you have.

Emotional responses over the understandable over reaction to this incident have been stated thousands of times.
 
Game regulations are different than Federal Firearms laws,
In Saskatchewan, a muzzle loader is loaded when capped under game regulations. So you can go from one hunting location to another with a loaded but not capped rifle. This does not supersede Federal law.
A firearm can only be loaded in a place that it is approved, therefore it cannot be loaded in your home, capped or not. .
I doubt that your Black Powder revolver is regulated under game regulations.
Knowing the different applications of law is important. I will not be the one testing interpretation in a court of law.
 
BirdCity said:
Been wondering when a cap-and-ball revolver would be considered "loaded" for transportation...
Click to expand...

unloaded, in respect of a firearm, means that any propellant, projectile or cartridge that can be discharged from the firearm is not contained in the breech or firing chamber of the firearm nor in the cartridge magazine attached to or inserted into the firearm. (non chargée)

<http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/page-1.html#h-1>
Click to expand...

10 (1) An individual may transport a non-restricted firearm only if

(a) except in the case of a muzzle-loading firearm that is being transported between hunting sites, it is unloaded; and

(b) in the case of a muzzle-loading firearm that is being transported between hunting sites, its firing cap or flint is removed.

<http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/page-2.html#docCont>
Click to expand...

Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulations (SOR/98-209)
<http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/index.html>
 
in the case of a Colt or Remington revolver, you would be exceedingly wise to remove the cylinder and carry it in your pocket, if you chose to carry a loaded cylinder with the gun. If the gun is a modern reproduction, you can only shoot it on a range and so I don't see the point in loading the cylinder ahead of time. If the gun is original, I think you would be extremely wise to use a lot of discretion about where you were transporting and shooting the gun.

As far as I know, in BC, non restricted muzzle loaders can be transported between hunting sites with cap, flint or lock removed but that ends as soon as you hit the pavement

cheers mooncoon
 
I'm the guy who first had the BC regs changed to allow the transport of ML's charged but uncapped or no powder in the pan. If that has changed, it has been very recent.

Savvy flinters took delight in pointing out that a good shower of sparks can still touch off a flintlock and I pointed out that smarter flinters would either plug the touch hole with a round toothpick or quill like the old timers. That or have a leather frizzen cover.

You don't want to confuse desk bound bureaucrats with too much information.

I frequently transport cap & ball revolvers to monthly CAS events charged, but not capped to save time. It is like having loaded rds in a cartridge revolver that have no primers - inert.

I have a couple of percussion Shiloh Sharps rifles and I travel between hunting locations with a rd up the spout and no cap on the nipple. I ran this by a couple of CO's I met in the bush and they just shrugged and wished me success.
 
Sharps '74 said:
...I frequently transport cap & ball revolvers to monthly CAS events charged, but not capped to save time. It is like having loaded rds in a cartridge revolver that have no primers - inert...
Click to expand...

The caps don't change the legal status. If no charged cylinder is "...attached to or inserted into the firearm...", it might be legal. If any charged cylinder is "...attached to or inserted into the firearm...", it is illegal.



unloaded, in respect of a firearm, means that any propellant, projectile or cartridge that can be discharged from the firearm is not contained in the breech or firing chamber of the firearm nor in the cartridge magazine attached to or inserted into the firearm. (non chargée)

<http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/page-1.html#h-1>
Click to expand...

11 An individual may transport a restricted firearm only if

(a) it is unloaded;

(b) it is rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device;

(c) it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation; and

(d) if it is in a container described in paragraph (c) that is in an unattended vehicle,

(i) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the container is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked, and

(ii) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the vehicle, or the part of the vehicle that contains the container, is securely locked and the container is not visible from outside the vehicle.


<http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/page-2.html#h-9>
Click to expand...

Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulations (SOR/98-209)
<http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/index.html>
 
Duh, do ya think ... ?

Like I said earlier, it's like having brass cartridges in a revolver with no primers. Short of a vehicle fire - no bang.

If a long gun can be transported loaded but unprimed, it follows that it applies to handguns.
 
Sharps '74 said:
As I read the regs you posted, it applies to RIFLES, not handguns.
Click to expand...

Read post #8 again. Specifically as it says the definition of unloaded, which it applies to FIREARMS, not differentiating between types of handguns or rifles. The second portion pertains to Restricted firearm transport, which part A is clear on it must be unloaded.

And in case your going to argue it is a antique, here is the regs on that which specifically say it also must be unloaded.
"Antique Firearms

14 (1) An individual may store, display or transport an antique firearm only if it is unloaded.
(2) An individual may transport an antique firearm in an unattended vehicle only if
(a) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked; and
(b) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is not visible from outside the vehicle and the vehicle, or the part that contains the antique firearm, is securely locked.
(3) An individual may transport an antique firearm that is a handgun only if it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation."

So unless it is a non-restricted muzzleloader going to and from hunting sites, the firearm must not have any primed chambers, or cylinders (and lack of a cap doesn't mean it isn't loaded under our law, due to the references above). Pretty clear cut.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
Read post #8 again. Specifically as it says the definition of unloaded, which it applies to FIREARMS, not differentiating between types of handguns or rifles. The second portion pertains to Restricted firearm transport, which part A is clear on it must be unloaded.

And in case your going to argue it is a antique, here is the regs on that which specifically say it also must be unloaded.
"Antique Firearms

14 (1) An individual may store, display or transport an antique firearm only if it is unloaded.
(2) An individual may transport an antique firearm in an unattended vehicle only if
(a) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked; and
(b) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is not visible from outside the vehicle and the vehicle, or the part that contains the antique firearm, is securely locked.
(3) An individual may transport an antique firearm that is a handgun only if it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation."

So unless it is a non-restricted muzzleloader going to and from hunting sites, the firearm must not have any primed chambers, or cylinders (and lack of a cap doesn't mean it isn't loaded under our law, due to the references above). Pretty clear cut.
Click to expand...

It's clear cut from your side of the arguement...I've not picked a side and everything looks clear as Mud. Typical Canadian Gun Laws at work.
 
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