When is brass compromised?

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EcoHeliGuy

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Hello

I have a question about when you should not reload brass that has seen too high of a charge?

If only the primer shows signs of too hot of a charge, is the brass still ok to reload?

I would assume its ok until you see any signs on the case itself, or is this incorrect?

Thanks
 
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AS above any doubts and replace it.

But you need to use the info in your manual about checking brass combined with your own experience and the things you learns from others taken with a grain of salt.

Some guns or actions are hard on brass and a couple loadings is all you will get. Some bolt guns with moderate loads could get 10 or more loadings. Some handguns and old low pressure rounds like .45/70 will get countless reloads. Crap or old hard brass may split after one firing. You have to inspect brass each time you load it from the first loading to the last and decide what is safe. The sizing can have just as much effect as the firing too so in one case mybe 10 mild loads or 10 hot will be the end for that brass. Really loose primer pockets from hot rounds and excessive case streching (leading to incipient case head separation) in some military auto loaders are common limiting factors explained in manuals.

Necks can split from brittle brass that is old and or been sized and shot too many times, this is not in itself unsafe but spells the end of the cartridge. In some cases people anneal brass with a torch to prevent this and get more life out of it. Usually with match prepped cases or rare calibres.
 
EcoHeliGuy said:
Hello

I have a question about when you should not reload brass that has seen to high of a charge?

If only the primer shows signs of to hot of a charge, is the brass still ok to reload?

I would assume its ok until you see any signs one the case it's self, or is this incorrect?

Thanks
Click to expand...


There is a lot of controversy over how long brass is good for.

I'm not going to go into a lot of detail here but I have 30-06 cases that have been reloaded 60+ times.

The key is, load a few grains under maximum, more if you don't need the velocity. 3-5 grains of powder in mid size cases, makes a difference of about 50fps for most bullets.

Learn how to re anneal your brass. There are more than a few different methods for doing this, so keep an open mind.

another thing, if the case is going into the same rifle, neck resize only. Once every 4 -5 reloads, measure the case for stretching, only trim if necessary. If you feel the need to trim, the cases might be tight in the chamber when you close the bolt. This can and is most likely because the shoulder needs to be annealed and set back a vew thou. This will likely take care of the + case length condition as well.

Keep track of your reloads and keep good accurate records. I get those round 1inch stickers from Staples and every time I finish off a batch of ammo, I change the number on the sticker for the next time round.

If you're loading for semi autos, all bets are off. The cases just don't seem to last as long and seem to have problems with thinning and eventual cracking or case head separation. I have gone so far as to anneal the brass after every third loading but I still can't get more than a dozen reloads out of the cases.

Problem with the semi autos is that the cases have to be full length resized every time. This extra reworking, takes a toll on the case life.

By the way, Magnum brass, regular, ultra or short is also another story.

The worst case life I've been getting from brass is with Winchester over the last 10 years. It definitely isn't the same mix of compounds it used to be. Much harder.
 
Inspect before re-use. When you start seeing multiple signs of pending failure, it will be time to assess the whole batch.

Case neck splits, Case stretch rings (pending case separation), elongation of the case, and primers that will not show enough friction to remain seated in the primer pocket, are the main signs that there is a breakdown on the horizon.

As to having your doubts and tossing it, well, a guy could skip reloading altogether, and only use factory ammo, but where's the fun in that. Or the savings.
It gets really easy to doubt everything, if you do a bunch of reading and follow ALL of it. :) There are a LOT of things that could go wrong with brass, but usually they do not all go wrong at the same time.

Use, clean (not necessary to polish, but many do), inspect, reload. Repeat.

Ask around and someone may be able to provide you with a couple examples of a separating case to see what that looks like. It is pretty easy to see once you become aware of what to look for. If you can, cut one of the separating cases lengthwise, so you can see what the inside looks like. It's educational!

Case life, as above, is going to vary a lot by your usage and loads, as well as many other criteria, so about the only sure thing is to inspect before use, and use what passes the inspection.

Cheers
Trev
 
I find that when hot gasses are venting into my face, that's a good sign that the brass may be reaching the end of it's useful life ;)
 
Reloading is like playing Black Jack........stay light and beat the dealer.
Meaning not much is gained by high pressures, and you have some very good advice above.

I get longer life from my cases by letting the gauge tell me if the cases are thinning in the web area. Proper fire forming and respecting your brass limitations will make your cases last a very long time.

RCBSCMG.jpg


I'm 62 years old and have been reloading for over 45 years, and I still have the same box of 30-30 cases I started with over 35 years ago. Speed kills people and brass. :rey2

Below the red and yellow areas are high stress areas at the base of the case.

deform.gif


Below are exaggerated over pressure signs, see dotted lines and case bulging.

flow.gif


Not all cases are created equal, the center case below is a Federial .223 case and the left and right cases are Lake City military 5.56 NATO cases with a thicker web area at the flash hole. The center cases have a problem with the primers falling out after very few reloads due to stretching.

fedcasethickness.jpg
 
Wow thanks so much for that, I do have a question about your 30-30 cases.
I am assuming they are used in a lever action in your case? If so my understanding is you must full resize the case being a lever, which works them more and lessens the life? So how are your 30-30 cases lasting so long?
 
I have had a few guys at work show me how they reload, and read through two new reloading manuals, as well as some very informative YouTube videos, going to pick up some reloading gear over the next few weeks.

Just I kept coming across talk about high pressure signs, but no one mentions if the brass is still ok to reload when you see only signs in the primer cap. This is why I'm asking, if I start seeing things like a crater firing pin, is the brass automatically bad or as long as it checks out I can reload it?

Thanks again for the help
 
EcoHeliGuy said:
I have had a few guys at work show me how they reload, and read through two new reloading manuals, as well as some very informative YouTube videos, going to pick up some reloading gear over the next few weeks.

Just I kept coming across talk about high pressure signs, but no one mentions if the brass is still ok to reload when you see only signs in the primer cap. This is why I'm asking, if I start seeing things like a crater firing pin, is the brass automatically bad or as long as it checks out I can reload it?

Thanks again for the help
Click to expand...

If it checks out OK, keep using the brass.

The only thing that automatically makes brass no longer worth checking further, is when it separates. Everything else, is condition specific, which is to say, that if it passes inspection, it's good for at least one more go round through the reload cycle.

Check for visible signs of swelling, pay attention to the amount of pressure it takes to insert the primer (a place where the priming tools beat out a press mounted prime) and pay attention to any other signs that the brass is needing to be scrapped.

Condition, condition, condition. Chuck out no brass before it's time!

Pressure signs are an indicator of that load, in that rifle. Not an indicator that you have pooched the brass.

Cheers
Trev
 
EcoHeliGuy said:
Wow thanks so much for that, I do have a question about your 30-30 cases.
I am assuming they are used in a lever action in your case? If so my understanding is you must full resize the case being a lever, which works them more and lessens the life? So how are your 30-30 cases lasting so long?
Click to expand...

The rated chamber pressure for the 30-30 is 38,000 cup or 42,000 psi and this is "LOW" pressure by modern standards. I do not full length resize my cases and only bump the shoulder back .002 to .003 by partial full length resizing. This means the reloading die does not make contact with the shell holder and "over resize" the cartridge case.

One of the best tools you can get is the Hornady cartridge case headspace gage set and measure your fired cases and set your dies for minimum shoulder bump to extend case life.

Picture009.jpg


The second best thing to have are a set of headspace control shims to place under your reloading dies lock ring. These shims let you control shoulder bump or how much you full length resize your cases.

shims.jpg


The .308 cases below were full length resized with the die making hard contact with the shell holder. With minimum shoulder bump these cases would have lasted longer, BUT below does show you a comparison of cases fired in "one" particular. What is not known below is where was this rifles headspace set at and how far was the shoulder being pushed back after each resizing. What also wasn't stated was the actual cartridge headspace length meaning how much shorter was the new cases from actual chamber length. (or how far did these cases stretch on the first firing)

308fail-1.jpg


308fail2-1.jpg
 
Wow great information, I am planing to reload 30-30 so this is very interesting.

So by using this method your having no issues in a lever action while chambering?

So if I understand this correctly when you full resize, your pushing the neck towards the case head. Normally the brass Bunches up (buckels) along the body under the pressure from the press. Instead of traveling the full lenght, you are only moving the neck slightly towards the case head. This only make a sight adjustment and is more like a hybrid of full and neck resizing. But doesn't work and stress the brass as much?
 
Examining primers for indications of high pressure is a very inexact art. There have been many articles written on this subject which have shown that you can have overpressure rounds without severe primer signs, and quite often you can have primers that appear to be over pressure (according to the traditional witch doctor approach to reading primers).
Primers are only one indication of too high pressure, and not very reliable at that. I would not depend on reading primers, unless you have expanded the pockets, or leaks around it (in which case you are already far far far too high already). Your best friends are current reloading manuals and a chronograph.
 
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