Which .22LR shoots better? How can you know?

Can-down said:
After re reading the OP, and all the other great posts, it seems the question could be simplified to,

Is it possible to compare the accuracy of two accurate rimfire rifles that are both able to shoot better then the ammo available for testing?

I should have seen where this thread was going after reading all the Tuner threads..... :)
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It's certainly possible to compare two rifles shooting from the same batches of ammo and draw conclusions.

It's also possible that since we can't vary powder charges to tune ammo as we do with centrefire, and not everyone has a tuner on their rimfire, the main variable we can change is the type of ammo, and it's very possible for a particular variety to land in the sweet spot for one rifle and the wrong spot for another. Don't be surprised if one rifle is better with one kind of ammo and the other does better with another and you can't get a clear "this rifle is absolutely better" result. And with any semis in the comparison, what cycles cleanly will be an issue too.

Earlier I made the point that skill is a big part of it too; a total newbie is going to scattergun the backstop regardless of their gear, and getting past that stage of one's shooting career is the biggest single improvement that can be made. But a lot of us are up to a level of competence where we can see differences between guns and between ammo varieties, and those differences are even sharper in the hands of the wizards. Also, benchresting makes it a lot easier to compare and wants more technical skills, while freehand shooting is a much harder physical skill.
 
old303 said:
It's certainly possible to compare two rifles shooting from the same batches of ammo and draw conclusions.

It's also possible that since we can't vary powder charges to tune ammo as we do with centrefire, and not everyone has a tuner on their rimfire, the main variable we can change is the type of ammo, and it's very possible for a particular variety to land in the sweet spot for one rifle and the wrong spot for another. Don't be surprised if one rifle is better with one kind of ammo and the other does better with another and you can't get a clear "this rifle is absolutely better" result. And with any semis in the comparison, what cycles cleanly will be an issue too.
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It can be easy to draw conclusions. Whether they are reliable or valid conclusions is another question.

A claim that changing the "type of ammo" and finding it "very possible for a particular variety to land in the sweet spot for one rifle and the wrong spot for another" is the product of misunderstanding. It misses the point.

Aside from.22LR ammo that's lousy and unreliable because of what it is (e.g. bulk ammo, entry level match ammo), it's not the type or variety of ammo that's the problem. In other words, it's not whether a shooter uses Eley Match or Lapua Midas + or whether he substitutes them with Eley Tenex or Lapua X-Act. The problem is that so much of the match ammo we get is itself too inconsistent to be used as a reliable yardstick to assess a rifle.
 
grauhanen said:
It can be easy to draw conclusions. Whether they are reliable or valid conclusions is another question.

A claim that changing the "type of ammo" and finding it "very possible for a particular variety to land in the sweet spot for one rifle and the wrong spot for another" is the product of misunderstanding. It misses the point.

Aside from.22LR ammo that's lousy and unreliable because of what it is (e.g. bulk ammo, entry level match ammo), it's not the type or variety of ammo that's the problem. In other words, it's not whether a shooter uses Eley Match or Lapua Midas + or whether he substitutes them with Eley Tenex or Lapua X-Act. The problem is that so much of the match ammo we get is itself too inconsistent to be used as a reliable yardstick to assess a rifle.
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I’m glad other shooters are seeing the same things I am. How 17/20 shots can be so precise and then the other 3 shoot like CCISV is the Rimfire mystery.
 
No shooter can assess and reliably compare rifles when he can't be sure that any of the ammo he has available is not consistent from box-to-box, round-to-round. The only way around this, is to shoot a very large number of targets to accumulate enough information to help mitigate the outliers in the data.

Anyone who has a "good" rifle yet finds that his results in calm conditions or over wind flags are not consistent from one target to the next, from one day to the next, should understand that it's the ammo that is available that's the main problem. This is true regardless if he uses one variety or another.

Some evidence can be offered. It has been shown previously.

Below are some results that were put in a chart a few years ago and that's why they are used here. All sizes are ten-shot groups, measured center-to-center. Each row shows the results on one target sheet, either four or three group sizes, with their average group size.

They were shot with two "good" rifles on calm days (of course no one can guarantee they were all equal). Rifle 1 was used more often than Rifle 2. A





What does all this mean?

While there are some very good targets with good three (or four) group averages, most show a considerable amount of variation in results. Good groups are followed by bad ones, and vice versa.

How can a shooter know how well a rifle or indeed his ammo is performing? Only by shooting enough so that a better picture comes out in the wash.

In total Ammo A produced 89 ten-shot groups. Ammo B gave 35, C produced 40, while D yielded 76.

Ammos A and B produced remarkably similar results in both rifles. Ammo A was clearly better than the other.

Ammos C and D had more variation. C and D was capable of very good performance, but they both had many wild cards, many outliers.

Perhaps someone more mathematically sophisticated than me could have used the data differently, more effectively. Perhaps they might have been able to use some method to figure out which rifle/ammo was most consistent (SD of group sizes, perhaps?).




The bottom line is that on any given day, with any of the rifles, it would be possible to get better or worse results than the overall averages. In the end, however, all results count.
 
Soo it all goes back to a bench rail gun fixture and a indoor ammo testing facility.

So reality it's just personal preference and luck. With a huge emphasis on Luck.
 
And even with an Anschutz, sometimes it comes down to what goes into the magazine and feeds cleanly every time, vs what's going to get sworn at a lot. Totally not a surprise it had a taste for the more expensive stuff!
 
Air rifle ammo is certainly less expensive than .22LR match ammo. But it's not necessarily simpler. Good air rifles can cost as much as good .22LR rifles. And as with .22LR ammo, not every variety of air rifle ammo will be equal in performance. Like .22LR it's necessary to find the best shooting air rifle projectiles, whether they are pellets or slugs.

There's variation between makes of pellets and slugs in shape and weight. Pellets come in different head sizes, especially in .177 and .22 calibers. All these matter.

And as with rimfire ammo, pellets and slugs are also made in batches called lots. Not all lots of the same pellets and slugs are equal in performance. Some are better or worse. Some will have more "flyers" than others. And like .22LR bullets, it's very difficult for the manufacturer to produce soft lead pellets and slugs with near perfect centers of gravity. Some lots will be better or worse. Some pellets within a lot will be better or worse. This will have consequences that get worse as distance to target increases.
 
Nothing is going to be pefect unless you want to shoot in an AI simulated eutopian range.... :)

Quality air rifles cost money for sure, no difference there, the main difference would be how accurate the valve mechanism is at controlling the pressure from shot to shot VS rimfire powder actuated rounds.

I wonder who would win for accuracy at 50- 100 yards indoors pitting the best of each against the other?
 
Can-down said:
Nothing is going to be pefect unless you want to shoot in an AI simulated eutopian range.... :)

Quality air rifles cost money for sure, no difference there, the main difference would be how accurate the valve mechanism is at controlling the pressure from shot to shot VS rimfire powder actuated rounds.

I wonder who would win for accuracy at 50- 100 yards indoors pitting the best of each against the other?
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If the goal is to punch paper at moderate distances, I am quickly leaning towards the better air rifles coming onto the market... and then making my own slugs.

I have seen a couple of FX rifles in use and they performed very well... certainly no worst then the 'good' rimfires shooting their desired ammo.

could solve alot of problems....

Jerry
 
Can-down said:
Nothing is going to be pefect unless you want to shoot in an AI simulated eutopian range.... :)

Quality air rifles cost money for sure, no difference there, the main difference would be how accurate the valve mechanism is at controlling the pressure from shot to shot VS rimfire powder actuated rounds.

I wonder who would win for accuracy at 50- 100 yards indoors pitting the best of each against the other?
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Oh noes, now we are going to get bighun in here praising how great his 3K airgun is, as he just wants to #### on firearm owners as he thinks we cannot shoot.
 
Mysticprecision said:
If the goal is to punch paper at moderate distances, I am quickly leaning towards the better air rifles coming onto the market... and then making my own slugs.

I have seen a couple of FX rifles in use and they performed very well... certainly no worst then the 'good' rimfires shooting their desired ammo.
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Airgun manufacturing techniques, barrel making and ammo choice have seen improvements over the last decade or so, as have rimfire rifles. The claim that good airguns have a level of accuracy equal to "good" rimfires with their best ammos could use some further information.

For example, will they regularly produce ten-shot groups at 100 that average sub-MOA?
 
OkayShooter said:
Oh noes, now we are going to get bighun in here praising how great his 3K airgun is, as he just wants to #### on firearm owners as he thinks we cannot shoot.
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I don't know bighun, but taking the piss out of each other over our various obsessions is not new.... :)
 
grauhanen said:
Airgun manufacturing techniques, barrel making and ammo choice have seen improvements over the last decade or so, as have rimfire rifles. The claim that good airguns have a level of accuracy equal to "good" rimfires with their best ammos could use some further information.

For example, will they regularly produce ten-shot groups at 100 that average sub-MOA?
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That's what I was wondering.... maybe 50 yards is a better distance to compare?

At the end of the day if your into chasing tiny groups it's a similar journey but perhaps with less ammo sensitivity due to only the pellet being a factor as opposed to the bullet, primer and powder of a rimfire cartridge.
 
Can-down said:
I don't know bighun, but taking the piss out of each other over our various obsessions is not new.... :)
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Well he shoots a FX airgun while its accurate, how he comes off makes you wanna hate airgunners. Got that elite mentaility that hes the best everybody else sucks and not worth his time. But 22LR rail gun wouldn't be accurate enough for him. But took on this 308 target rifle project that apparently gonna test firearm owners to see if they're worth anything or just blow smoke. Too cocky I say and makes airgunners look like #######s.

Glenn closer to him to really go side by side with him.

But you're gonna be looking at 4k airgun setups. I'm happy with my 600$ Anschutz 22LR, 200$ scope to make the 1/2" club and the accuracy it produces is good enough.
 
OkayShooter said:
Well he shoots a FX airgun while its accurate, how he comes off makes you wanna hate airgunners. Got that elite mentaility that hes the best everybody else sucks and not worth his time. But 22LR rail gun wouldn't be accurate enough for him. But took on this 308 target rifle project that apparently gonna test firearm owners to see if they're worth anything or just blow smoke. Too cocky I say and makes airgunners look like #######s.

Glenn closer to him to really go side by side with him.

But you're gonna be looking at 4k airgun setups. I'm happy with my 600$ Anschutz 22LR, 200$ scope to make the 1/2" club and the accuracy it produces is good enough.
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Nice,
I think most people would be happy to make the 1/2" club for less then a grand.... :)
 
I have spent thousands on ammo... I get to see more lots them most shooters as I am a dealer. for me, rimfire ammo is inconsistent (as I have described at huge length before). That will likely not change and I feel will likely get worst as demand overall, ramps up.

The make or break variable is the energy into the system.. rimfire ammo will vary and I just don't see how they will get to a level where the ENTIRE batch shoots consistently. With air, you have a chance of getting this consistent.

If you can keep the energy into the system precise, and consistent, you have a hope of creating systems to send a projo into itty bitty groups.

Also, when you can control the projo, you can build shapes that work better at far distances (my interest is ELR). We already have airguns shooting out to 600yds with very precise repeatability and accuracy. That is a huge leap ahead of anything I have seen in rimfire and I have tried.

could some new rimfire ammo improve performance? Sure but I think there will be enough flyers to never truly make it a 100% chance of hits

And yes, I have seen FX airguns at 300m shoot some very tight groups. Certainly no worst them the best rimfires at the same test... and the odds of the next shot going where you want is certainly higher then the hope and pray we have to deal with in rimfire at this time.

YMMV


Jerry
 
Mysticprecision said:
I have spent thousands on ammo... I get to see more lots them most shooters as I am a dealer. for me, rimfire ammo is inconsistent (as I have described at huge length before). That will likely not change and I feel will likely get worst as demand overall, ramps up.

The make or break variable is the energy into the system.. rimfire ammo will vary and I just don't see how they will get to a level where the ENTIRE batch shoots consistently. With air, you have a chance of getting this consistent.

If you can keep the energy into the system precise, and consistent, you have a hope of creating systems to send a projo into itty bitty groups.

Also, when you can control the projo, you can build shapes that work better at far distances (my interest is ELR). We already have airguns shooting out to 600yds with very precise repeatability and accuracy. That is a huge leap ahead of anything I have seen in rimfire and I have tried.

could some new rimfire ammo improve performance? Sure but I think there will be enough flyers to never truly make it a 100% chance of hits

And yes, I have seen FX airguns at 300m shoot some very tight groups. Certainly no worst them the best rimfires at the same test... and the odds of the next shot going where you want is certainly higher then the hope and pray we have the deal with in rimfire at this time.

YMMV


Jerry
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Jerry, you should be aware that no one is shooting "very tight groups" (your words) at 300 yards with air rifle or .22LR. A distance of 300 yards is too far for what either airgun or .22LR can achieve with repeatable precision and accuracy. "Tight groups" at 300 are not possible except as a happy coincidence that's not easily repeated -- unless the definition of "tight group" is changed to mean something different than usual.

As always, if there is reliable evidence to the contrary, direction to it is welcome. In the absence such evidence, it will appear that the claim remains unsupported. (Youtube videos like Ted Holdover's FX Panthera clip doesn't have the evidence for the claim.)

In any event, with air rifle a small ES is not a performance guarantee any more than it is with .22LR. As long as pellets and slugs are made of soft lead and are imperfect -- as are .22LR bullets -- muzzle velocity alone can't dictate trajectory.

Whether you see a lot more different lots of match ammo because you are a dealer is unclear. If you sell rimfire match ammo as a dealer, do you get any lots of Lapua or Eley or RWS that are unavailable to other shooters from other dealers?
 
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