Which .458 cartridge

-JD-

-JD-

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Hello fellow CGNer’s! So I’ve got a bit of a problem on my hands that some of you may be able to help me with. What I have is a long action with a magnum bolt face and a .458 barrel with a 1-18 twist and the problem is that I can’t figure out what I want to chamber this combo in! The calibres that I have given the most thought towards are the 450 marlin and 458 win mag. I’ve read so many articles and watched so many videos my heads spinning and once I think I’ve made up my mind I see something else and change it! ��
So I wanted to build this rifle to shoot primarily deer and moose here in Ontario. I hope one day to be able to go on a brown bear hunt (and if I came into a lot of money an African safari) however at this point in my life (young family) that doesn’t seem to be in the cards! Lol. Anyway, my first idea was to build a “scout” style rifle with a 18.5-20” barrel, so I considered the 450 marlin. My friend has a 450 and he doesn’t reload (I do) so I already bought dies to reload for him and I might be able to buy some 1x fired brass off him also.
Then I considered the 458 win mag because why not, I have a long action, brass is probably more readily available and will be long after the 450 marlin goes the way of the dodo and it would just be cool to have a 458 win mag! (The reamers are also a little cheaper.)
My qualms about going with the 458 win mag is the fact that I wanted to build a shorter, lighter weight rifle originally. A 458wm rifle should weigh at least 9.5 lbs and you’d probably want at least a 22” barrel. So I guess if I go with the 458 I’d probably build more of a safari style rifle. I suppose I could make the rifle on the lighter side as I really don’t ever see myself shooting full power 458 dangerous game rounds and would probably just load 300-400 grain bullets, which would be plenty for moose anyway (and probably brown bear if the hunting opportunity ever came along). I just keep thinking about future brass availability, the coolness factor and the fact that I can load it up or down depending on what I’d want to do with it. Do you see my problem?!
So CGN let’s hear your thoughts and opinions? Hopefully I’ll finally be able to make up my mind!

PS I wanted to make this a poll but couldn’t find the option, maybe cause I’m doing this from my phone?
 
Id go 458 win because it’s a classic. But if you want a smaller lighter rifle you could try a 458 2”/458 American. Basically a 450 marlin without the proprietary brass. Just shorten any belted magnum brass and there you go, best of both worlds.
 
458 win mag. Load to tyranosaurus levels, or down to say some sort of a 45-70 level. Being it's a 2.5" magnum family case, hunt around for a different barrel, different bore, and you could switch over quick. Like a day quick, once you sight in.

Then the problem becomes what....416 chatfield Taylor, 375 CT, 358nm, 338wm, 308nm, 7mm rem mag, 264wm.......
 
450 marlin is a different animal when you load it for a bolt rifle instead of marlins lever rifle. Instead of loading to marlins lever limit of 42000 psi you can take it to 60000 psi in a modern bolt action safely.
 
20” brl and chamber it in 458lott. This way it is still possible to use the 458 winmag if possible. Cost of chambering is the same. Depending on your requirements, can get 250g Barnes on low side and what ever you desire for higher weight bullets. A good stock and recoil pad helps a lot when the rifle is lighter weight rifle
 
keith mokry said:
20” brl and chamber it in 458lott. This way it is still possible to use the 458 winmag if possible. Cost of chambering is the same. Depending on your requirements, can get 250g Barnes on low side and what ever you desire for higher weight bullets.
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The .458 Lott is not for everyone..recoil is even more brutal than .458 win.
 
Janeau said:
The .458 Lott is not for everyone..recoil is even more brutal than .458 win.
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Doesn't the Lott require a magnum size action, not a long action too? 3.600" OAL vs 3.340 on the win mag if my googling is correct?


OP the win mag seems like the obvious answer. As you stated you can load things on the mild side if you don't want to make the gun too heavy, and you can always equal 45-70 or 450 marlin, with the potential to kick it up a notch.
 
.458 WM & .458 Lott typically 1:14 twist your slower 1:18 twist barrel not optimum for heavier bullets, .450 Marlin rifles use 1:20 twist barrels.

Properly designed muzzle brake can significantly reduce recoil.
 
4fifty8 said:
.458 WM & .458 Lott typically 1:14 twist your slower 1:18 twist barrel not optimum for heavier bullets, .450 Marlin rifles use 1:20 twist barrels.

Properly designed muzzle brake can significantly reduce recoil.
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Unless the OP is trying to shoot 500gr bullets the slower twist probably won't matter?
 
I am building a .450 Marlin as we speak, I should have it back next week. The donor was a Stainless Ruger M77 Mark II Long action in 7 Rem Mag. I cut the barrel to 20" and load the Speer 350 (#2478)... I could have done this rifle on a short action but the only stainless M77 Short Action magnum I have available is a .350 Rem Mag that is ear marked for another project. I actually had three M77 Mark II Stainless .350 RM's, one is untouched, one was rebarreled to 6.5 Rem Mag and the other is becoming a .375 WSM. If I were you, I would do either a 20" .450 Marlin or a .458x2". Either gives you stout .45/70 performance in a bolt action. I am putting this M77 .450 Marlin in a B&C stock with a Bushnell AR 1-6x24 Illuminated scope, predominantly for carrying while guiding bear hunters... but I may put it to use for my own bear, but I have a new Hoyt Highline bow I want to exercise before my western hunting this fall, and a takedown recurve that is begging for some action... may just flip a coin.
 
458 Win mag. Best of both worlds.
You can download a 458 to be a 45-70 but you can't load a 45-70(450 Marlin) to be a 458 Win mag.
 
458x2" gives you basically free brass. There's always 7mm rem mag or 300wm brass kicking around gun clubs. Pick it up and trim to length.
I'm a big fan of the 458wm. Recoil can be stout but you don't need to load it hot. I shoot 300gr HP at 2600fps at paper. Never tested that bullet at that speed to see if it holds up it's a nice shooting load. I hunt with a 400gr at 2450fps or 405gr rem bulk flat nose at 2400fps. That load really puts the hurt on black bears. I'm not sure of my twist rate off hand but I have a 26.5" barrel. Makes for a large gun.
 
I'd go with either 450 Marlin or 458x2 meself. The 1 in 18" twist works well with 405 gr projectiles. My Steyr Prohunter in 450 Marlin had a 1 in 14" twist that be well suited for bullets to 500+ gr, but I just stuck with hardcast 405's in 'er with fine results at moderate velocities. (1200 to 1500 fps) My Pedersoli 86/71 in 45-70 had 1 in 18" twist,(Like all Pedersoli rifles in 45-70 have) and she was a tight shooter with my hardcast loads.

I've had six 458 Win rifles over the yrs and they all were all 1 in 14". They worked fine fer me using hardcast & jacketed bullets.
 
Thanks for all the suggestions so far everyone. I have looked into the 458x2” American, yes brass would definitely be plentiful but the one thing that kind of put me off about this cartridge was that some said you had to ream the cases out. Not sure how much of a pain this would be but it is something you wouldn’t have to do with the marlin or win mag.

Regarding the 1-18 twist rate, everything I’ve read suggests that it should be fine for 250 to 405 grain bullets which is what I plan on using anyway. I mean guys use 500gr bullets in their black powder 45-70s so should be fine in a 458 win mag.

I also really liked the idea of the 458 BLM (300 rum case cut down to 2.16”’ necked to .458) but apparently they won’t sell reamers to individuals to build their own rifles, so that idea went out the window.
Thinking maybe we should come up with a similar case design and call the 458 Canadian or Canadia Guide or something!
 
-JD- said:
Thinking maybe we should come up with a similar case design and call the 458 Canadian or Canadia Guide or something!
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Just give a drawing to a reamer maker, you can have whatever you want.

Personally I would probably go for a nice common .458 Win Mag. There will always be brass and dies available for it. You don't have to load it to full power - with Trail Boss or Unique you could get it down to mild .45-70 load levels with ease.
 
-JD- said:
Thanks for all the suggestions so far everyone. I have looked into the 458x2” American, yes brass would definitely be plentiful but the one thing that kind of put me off about this cartridge was that some said you had to ream the cases out. Not sure how much of a pain this would be but it is something you wouldn’t have to do with the marlin or win mag.

Regarding the 1-18 twist rate, everything I’ve read suggests that it should be fine for 250 to 405 grain bullets which is what I plan on using anyway. I mean guys use 500gr bullets in their black powder 45-70s so should be fine in a 458 win mag.

I also really liked the idea of the 458 BLM (300 rum case cut down to 2.16”’ necked to .458) but apparently they won’t sell reamers to individuals to build their own rifles, so that idea went out the window.
Thinking maybe we should come up with a similar case design and call the 458 Canadian or Canadia Guide or something!
Click to expand...

The only reason to go for the .458x2" over the .450 Marlin is brass availability. If you have the dies and a source for brass for the Marlin, then it is a good way to go. It took me a couple hours online to source 300 pieces of Marlin brass @ 58 cents each. My local shop had the dies, Bob Jury had the stainless 14 twist barrel. As far as resale, I would bet a .450 Marlin BOLT ACTION rifle will out sell a .458 Win Mag... I have bought and sold dozens of big bore rifles, including several .458's of the WM and Lott persuasions, and believe me, they don't go quick and you are often letting them go for less than you had hoped. I think a mistake many people (me) make when building a rifle, is designing it for the "one-off" dream scenario (Africa), which makes it largely irrelevant to their common, every day purposes... this rifle ends up gathering dust and eventually being sold off. It sounds to me that your Ontario Hunting scenario is better served by a .450 Marlin or .458x2" loaded UP, rather than a .458 WM loaded DOWN. As far as the brass for the .458x2" is concerned, I only ever had to cut to length and then chamfer the case mouth, which I do all the time anyway or you will buckle a case here and there, then size... it was not difficult. If you want to do a custom or one-off cartridge, PTG can build you a reamer off your specs and you can have John Whidden build you dies off the PTG blueprint, I have built several rifles this way. Good luck with your project.
 
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hoytcanon said:
The only reason to go for the .458x2" over the .450 Marlin is brass availability. If you have the dies and a source for brass for the Marlin, then it is a good way to go. It took me a couple hours online to source 300 pieces of Marlin brass @ 58 cents each. My local shop had the dies, Bob Jury had the stainless 14 twist barrel. As far as resale, I would bet a .450 Marlin BOLT ACTION rifle will out sell a .458 Win Mag... I have bought and sold dozens of big bore rifles, including several .458's of the WM and Lott persuasions, and believe me, they don't go quick and you are often letting them go for less than you had hoped. I think a mistake many people (me) make when building a rifle, is designing it for the "one-off" dream scenario (Africa), which makes it largely irrelevant to their common, every day purposes... this rifle ends up gathering dust and eventually being sold off. It sounds to me that your Ontario Hunting scenario is better served by a .450 Marlin or .458x2" loaded UP, rather than a .458 WM loaded DOWN. As far as the brass for the .458x2" is concerned, I only ever had to cut to length and then chamfer the case mouth, which I do all the time anyway or you will buckle a case here and there, then size... it was not difficult. If you want to do a custom or one-off cartridge, PTG can build you a reamer off your specs and you can have John Whidden build you dies off the PTG blueprint, I have built several rifles this way. Good luck with your project.
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This is exactly what I’m worried about, I know that I’ll never use the 458 wm to its full potential. The marlin and American is all I’d ever need. Didn’t give much thought to resale but that is a point to consider.

Lots of good points here so far guys, thanks!
 
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