which cartridge for long range?
- Thread starter ajax
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The 338 RUM uses a slightly shorter case (.090") than the Edge, which is based on the 300 RUM case.
The Lapua has a tiny bit more horsepower, but it also requires a larger bolt face and the brass is expensive.
Although I am a lapua snob, I have to admit the Edge is so close that it hardly makes sense to go lapua
The Lapua has a tiny bit more horsepower, but it also requires a larger bolt face and the brass is expensive.
Although I am a lapua snob, I have to admit the Edge is so close that it hardly makes sense to go lapua
thanks for adding your knowledge rick and ian, this gun would be used for up to 1500 yards and maybe if it shoots good enough a little f-class! rick what cartridge do you find the most accurate of the big boomers that you build or the easiest to get to shoot out of the box? i was originally going to go with a 7mm wsm or the rem mag but i heard that barrel life is extremely short!
so my thoughts are with the 300 win mag good at long range and not too expensive to shoot and a decent barrel life?!
so my thoughts are with the 300 win mag good at long range and not too expensive to shoot and a decent barrel life?!
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
At this point from all match bullet manfs that we can readily access in Canada, ALL cals are limited to just a few high BC bullets. With a min G7 BC of 0.28 (data from Bryan's book), this is what is available:
22cal - 1 Berger
6mm 1 Bergers, 1 DTAC (close enough) - 2
6.5 2 Lapuas, 1 MK, 4 Bergers, 1 Hornady - 8
7mm 3 Bergers, 2 Hornady, 1 MK - 6
30cal 3 MK's, 1 Hornady, 5 Berger - 8
338 2 Lapua, 2 MK's, ??? on Berger - 4+
So no matter what you build for, you are taking the same crap shoot that a super high BC for that bullet WILL shoot. Good thing is that most of these bullets DO shoot very well in common twists.
Between myself and a couple of shooters I know, ALL 7mm super high BC bullets shoot very well from 9 twists out of everything from the 7-08 to the 7RM.
As for being blown less in the wind if you are heavier, sorry, that is incorrect. Bullets of the same BC fly through the air with the same trajectory given the same muzzle velocity and POA.
Take it up with the Aerospace Engineer if you don't believe me.
There is, however, no doubt that a heavier bullet will make a much larger impression when it arrives.
Jerry
I read the book before it was even sold up here 
I wouldn't even begin to think about getting into a debate on physics or ballistics with Bryan.
The real world experience (remember, mathematically everyone shooting Berger 105 VLD's should be beating everyone using Sierra 107's, 260's should be beating 6BR's but they don't! not always anyway) is that first you have to make that gun launch those bullet in a way that they hit the same hole every time before you can enter into a contest between ballistic coefficients. The highest BC bullet in the world is no good if there isn't a proper powder to make it work, or if the shape of the cartridge is outside of the design sweet-spot.
Fact remains, there are some guns and some cartridges that are WAAY easier to dial-in than others. I have spat on my last gawdammed 6-6.5X47 because it should take less than 750 rounds of tedious endless experimentation to load develop. 6BR needs only to get to 2850 and find a seating depth. That takes me 10 rounds usually.
I have used barrels that were absolutely straight, absolutely even from stem to stern and chambered with 1/10,0000" tolerances that WOULD NOT SHOOT LAPUA 105's accurately no matter WHAT I did. Load a Berger in there and they bug hole.
Theory isn't worth a pinch of (rac)coon schitt if it doesn't work in practice. Theories get proven or disproven when the trophies are handed out.
I wouldn't even begin to think about getting into a debate on physics or ballistics with Bryan.The real world experience (remember, mathematically everyone shooting Berger 105 VLD's should be beating everyone using Sierra 107's, 260's should be beating 6BR's but they don't! not always anyway) is that first you have to make that gun launch those bullet in a way that they hit the same hole every time before you can enter into a contest between ballistic coefficients. The highest BC bullet in the world is no good if there isn't a proper powder to make it work, or if the shape of the cartridge is outside of the design sweet-spot.
Fact remains, there are some guns and some cartridges that are WAAY easier to dial-in than others. I have spat on my last gawdammed 6-6.5X47 because it should take less than 750 rounds of tedious endless experimentation to load develop. 6BR needs only to get to 2850 and find a seating depth. That takes me 10 rounds usually.
I have used barrels that were absolutely straight, absolutely even from stem to stern and chambered with 1/10,0000" tolerances that WOULD NOT SHOOT LAPUA 105's accurately no matter WHAT I did. Load a Berger in there and they bug hole.
Theory isn't worth a pinch of (rac)coon schitt if it doesn't work in practice. Theories get proven or disproven when the trophies are handed out.
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
Is downrange energy important, or not? (hunting vs. target shooting)
(this will help choose a 6.5-.284 or a big .338)
How important (or not) is cost per shot, and barrel life to you?
(shooting is expensive, but there are degrees of "expensive"...!)
How important is good wind drift performance to you, and just how much are you willing to pay for it?
Are you looking for "pretty darn accurate", or are you looking for "incredibly accurate" (as in, good enough to win an F-Class match)? This will affect both cost and calibre choice.
Do you load your own ammunition? Are you reasonably accomplished at it, or interested/willing in becoming quite accomplished at it?
Not to be negative about it, but quite honestly .300 Win Mag (or any of the .30 cal mags for that matter) seems to me to be the worst of all worlds. On the one hand, it's not particularly cheap (it's more expensive than a .308), it's not particularly easy to shoot well (more recoil and blast than a .308), and it's barrel life isn't terribly long (shorter than a .308). On the other hand, it's not particularly powerful (in terms of muzzle energy and downrange energy, e.g. compared to any of the .338s or bigger), it doesn't have particularly good wind drift performance (a 6.5-.284 or .338 will outperform it), it doesn't shoot particularly flat. I can't really think of an application where a .300 magnum is the right tool for the job - it strikes me that something bigger or something smaller is probably a better way to get the job done, depending on what's important to you.
Compelling evidence that theory and practice diverge a great deal sometimes....
6mm vs. 6.5mm vs. Big 30s
In 100/200 yard Benchrest shooting, the 6PPC is pretty much king of the hill. However, in the 1000-yard game, many different calibers can win. A 6BR or 6BR Improved can be very competitive at 1000 yards, despite its diminutive size and minimal recoil. A standard 6BR, after all, set the ten-shot 1000-yard world record. For a long time, the 6.5s and 30s have been dueling for top honors, with the 30s usually coming out ahead. This is evolving though, as the longer barrel life and lesser recoil of the 6.5 caliber attracts more top-level shooters.
I have shot two 30-caliber rifles and am now using a 6.5-284. Two years ago, I couldn't see myself campaigning a 6.5 at 1000 yards, but things change, and I am happy with my new 6.5-284. The 6.5-284 wins its share of matches, and is a true tack-driver when tuned right. But the majority of Aggregates are probably still being won with 30-caliber bullets shot from some kind of magnum case. The big bore shooters believe a heavier bullet flies better in unpredictable wind conditions. Ballistics experts can dispute that theory, but 30s still win the most trophies when it blows. In calm or steady-wind conditions however, a 6BR is completely capable of winning a major 1000-yd match in the hands of a skilled shooter. In fact, at the Montana 1000-yd matches, 6 Dashers regularly post small group for match, and sometimes win outright, against all other calibers, both Light Gun and Heavy. Just this past June, in Colorado, Richard Schatz set a new 6-Target NBRSA LG World Record with an 11-lb Dasher.
6mm vs. 6.5mm vs. Big 30s
In 100/200 yard Benchrest shooting, the 6PPC is pretty much king of the hill. However, in the 1000-yard game, many different calibers can win. A 6BR or 6BR Improved can be very competitive at 1000 yards, despite its diminutive size and minimal recoil. A standard 6BR, after all, set the ten-shot 1000-yard world record. For a long time, the 6.5s and 30s have been dueling for top honors, with the 30s usually coming out ahead. This is evolving though, as the longer barrel life and lesser recoil of the 6.5 caliber attracts more top-level shooters.
I have shot two 30-caliber rifles and am now using a 6.5-284. Two years ago, I couldn't see myself campaigning a 6.5 at 1000 yards, but things change, and I am happy with my new 6.5-284. The 6.5-284 wins its share of matches, and is a true tack-driver when tuned right. But the majority of Aggregates are probably still being won with 30-caliber bullets shot from some kind of magnum case. The big bore shooters believe a heavier bullet flies better in unpredictable wind conditions. Ballistics experts can dispute that theory, but 30s still win the most trophies when it blows. In calm or steady-wind conditions however, a 6BR is completely capable of winning a major 1000-yd match in the hands of a skilled shooter. In fact, at the Montana 1000-yd matches, 6 Dashers regularly post small group for match, and sometimes win outright, against all other calibers, both Light Gun and Heavy. Just this past June, in Colorado, Richard Schatz set a new 6-Target NBRSA LG World Record with an 11-lb Dasher.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I read the book before it was even sold up here
The real world experience (remember, mathematically everyone shooting Berger 105 VLD's should be beating everyone using Sierra 107's, 260's should be beating 6BR's but they don't! not always anyway) is that first you have to make that gun launch those bullet in a way that they hit the same hole every time before you can enter into a contest between ballistic coefficients. The highest BC bullet in the world is no good if there isn't a proper powder to make it work, or if the shape of the cartridge is outside of the design sweet-spot.
Fact remains, there are some guns and some cartridges that are WAAY easier to dial-in than others. I have spat on my last gawdammed 6-6.5X47 because it should take less than 750 rounds of tedious endless experimentation to load develop. 6BR needs only to get to 2850 and find a seating depth. That takes me 10 rounds usually.
I have used barrels that were absolutely straight, absolutely even from stem to stern and chambered with 1/10,0000" tolerances that WOULD NOT SHOOT LAPUA 105's accurately no matter WHAT I did. Load a Berger in there and they bug hole.
Theory isn't worth a pinch of (rac)coon schitt if it doesn't work in practice. Theories get proven or disproven when the trophies are handed out.
There is no denying, holes in paper are what matter and when the trophies were handed out over in England, I think all/most of them went to 7mm shooters. At least it did in the team comp.
A number of big US matches also went to 7mm's shooters this season.
Didn't a CGN Member take home all the marbles at this years DCRA Nats using a 260AI?
When theory meets with real world performance, it definitely changes the norms. Were any 6mm's shot at Bisley?
The best gear in the world still has to be shot by someone competent and that person has to have favorable conditions vs the rest of the shooters. We have all had crappy relays when others have shot in ideal conditions.
Every now and then a bit of luck doesn't hurt either.
However, when you get the best of everything and distances stretch out and winds/terrain get difficult, the highest BC bullets at the highest velocities CAN offer an advantage in the F class game. If you can live with the pain...
Despite their success or rather dominance in the SR BR world, I have yet to hear of a single shooter using the PPC or 30BR in F class even at 300m. WHY? They certainly can be exceptionally accurate.
Sorry to hear that the 6 Lapua hasn't worked out. It should but....Even though our wallets don't want to believe this, some barrels shoot better then others even from the same manf. Sometimes you get a dud and you have to spend more money looking for that hummer. When you do get one though, life sure is sweet.
There are no shortage of shooters getting exceptional accuracy from similar cartridges. In fact, the 6XC was used to kick everyones butt over in a big Euro 300m match dethroning the 6BR.
But then next match might be completely different....
Jerry
PS some powder lots STINK!!!!!! Gave up on one of the 6.5's but had to resurrect it as someone wanted my Shilen barrel more then I
Switched lots of H4831SC and VOILA, shooting like it is supposed to.
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The UK team has used a number of cartridges over the years including 7mm Boo Boo, 6.5X284 and others. They have home field advantage at Stickledown range, and when shooting in 35 MPH cross winds at 1000 yards, its all about the shooter and coach knowing his cartridge - period. (Any guesses as to what barrels they use? )
There is no doubt that the slick 7's are the cartridge to beat when they work. I've said that before, but 30's are more of a sure thing load development wise.
As to the 6X47, re-chambered in 6BR, that barrel is literally a one-hole gun. Nothing wrong with the barrel. Never had a Krieger that wasn't stunning. Setting back didn't need much taken off either. Problem solved. The more I f*ck around with the bigger better mousetraps out there, the more I keep coming back to my beloved 6BRs.
)There is no doubt that the slick 7's are the cartridge to beat when they work. I've said that before, but 30's are more of a sure thing load development wise.
As to the 6X47, re-chambered in 6BR, that barrel is literally a one-hole gun. Nothing wrong with the barrel. Never had a Krieger that wasn't stunning. Setting back didn't need much taken off either. Problem solved. The more I f*ck around with the bigger better mousetraps out there, the more I keep coming back to my beloved 6BRs.
IMHO if you want a great long range calibre with good barrel life, stay away from most of the overbore cartridges like the STW, Ultra Mags....
You can get all the performance you need from a straight 7mm Rem Mag. It will have the jam to shoot the 168 and 180 Bergers, 175 SMK and the 162 Amax (which all have BCs in the .6s, by the G1 model, I believe). You will also have a host of great shooting hunting bullets to shoot if you wish.
I am going with a 7wsm in a short action and will find out when I start load development if my gamble will work. Hey its only money right?
BTW if barrel life is a major concern don't load to max velocities, I am well below max with most of my rifles because that is where they shoot the best and squeezing that last 100 or 200fps out of my rifle isn't as important as accuracy to me.
Ivo
You can get all the performance you need from a straight 7mm Rem Mag. It will have the jam to shoot the 168 and 180 Bergers, 175 SMK and the 162 Amax (which all have BCs in the .6s, by the G1 model, I believe). You will also have a host of great shooting hunting bullets to shoot if you wish.
I am going with a 7wsm in a short action and will find out when I start load development if my gamble will work. Hey its only money right?
BTW if barrel life is a major concern don't load to max velocities, I am well below max with most of my rifles because that is where they shoot the best and squeezing that last 100 or 200fps out of my rifle isn't as important as accuracy to me.
Ivo
- Location
- calgary alberta
My vote on the boomers goes to 338 Lapua, reasons being very high quality brass is readily available, and for some reason the Lapua guys designed a caliber that seems to be inherrently accurate.
The 338 Edge and 338 RUM come close to matching the ballistics, and can be made on a regular magnum boltface. Of these 2 the only factory offering is the 338RUM and they are in a very limited offering of rifles. The biggest downfall of the 338RUM is the crap that remington offers for brass. This can be solved if you have lots of time to match prep brass, personally I don't.
The 338 Edge can be fed decent brass by necking up Nosler 300RUM brass, it still needs a bit of work to compare with what Lapua offers right out of the box.
Having built many 338 Edges and Edge AIs now, we are getting the feedback from the clients who have them, barrel life is well over 1000 rnds, brass life is decent but not exceptional.
The 338 lapua also seems to have no issues with getting 1500 rnds out of a barrel before any noticeable barrel decrease is seen in accuracy from barrel wear. Most of my guys are getting really good brass life as well.
The 338LAI that I kinda dreamt up seems to just keep on going. My current 338LAI has just over 2000 rounds down the barrel and still has no problem ringing a 6" gong at 1000 yards. To date I have reloaded the original 100 casings 21 times, so brass life is incredible. The initial cost of 338 Lapua brass is a bitter pill to swallow, but with the longevity of its useful life and the fact I do not have to really prep it at all, I think it is a bargain
There are several other rifles of this caliber that I have built that have similar histories and are still perfoming like mine.
Ajax You don't mention whether you plan to try and hunt with whatever you build, but if real long range hunting is at all in the plan, given your magnum boltface I would not hesitate to build a 338 Edge. I have yet to find anyone that does not find the caliber does the job at the distances you mention with ease.
blygy, i ordered a stiller!
thanks rick, this is going to be a rifle of around 16 pounds or so. i might hunt a little with it but i am not humping that thing around all day!
as for the .338 i am not sure i want to go into that territory yet, but its not a closed book yet either. do you build quite a few 300 mags or 7mm mags and what do you get for feedback from your customers that are shooting them?
thanks rick, this is going to be a rifle of around 16 pounds or so. i might hunt a little with it but i am not humping that thing around all day!
as for the .338 i am not sure i want to go into that territory yet, but its not a closed book yet either. do you build quite a few 300 mags or 7mm mags and what do you get for feedback from your customers that are shooting them?
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
It's false economy to download a magnum to get better barrel life. If you want better barrel life, a much better way is to use a smaller case and load it up to or near max (which is where best accuracy is usually found). It'll be cheaper (less powder), probably more accurate, and the barrel will last longer than a downloaded magnum.
Ajax, you need to decide what calibre you want (more specifically, which bullet you want to shoot), and what level of performance you want to get from it (this determines your case capacity). You have quite a range of options open to you, they are all useful for something, but depending on what you want, there are better and worse choices to be made.
There's nothing necessarily wrong with an "overbore" cartridge (gawd how I think that is an irritating and misleading term). There are tradeoffs to be made, barrel life is one of them, and it is *NOT* sacred. The fact of the matter is, barrels wear out and get used up - and they are one of the cheapest parts of your overall shooting cost. Throwing away a shot-out $500 or $1000 barrel is pretty much a drop in the bucket.
Ballistics theory doesn't diverge from practice very much if at all. If and when it does, it is wrong, needs to be fixed, and will be fixed pretty darn quickly - after all it is science and engineering, and that's how things get done. Wind drift is predictable, and the factors that affect it and the parameters that characterize it are well-known - and bullet weight and bullet diameter are not those parameters. 1000yd BR shooters might think that it is the heavy weight of a big .30 cal bullet that helped them win the match, but that doesn't mean that they are right.
I am guessing that if the UK F/Open team used .308s this July at the F-Class World Championships in Bisley, the American F/Open team (6.5-.284) would have beaten them. Even stipulating that the Brit team had better coaches and a home-field advantage, I don't think that would have been enough of an edge to beat the Americans' 6.5-.284s (which were good rifles, fired by good shooters, directed by good and proven coaches).
Ajax, you need to decide what calibre you want (more specifically, which bullet you want to shoot), and what level of performance you want to get from it (this determines your case capacity). You have quite a range of options open to you, they are all useful for something, but depending on what you want, there are better and worse choices to be made.
There's nothing necessarily wrong with an "overbore" cartridge (gawd how I think that is an irritating and misleading term). There are tradeoffs to be made, barrel life is one of them, and it is *NOT* sacred. The fact of the matter is, barrels wear out and get used up - and they are one of the cheapest parts of your overall shooting cost. Throwing away a shot-out $500 or $1000 barrel is pretty much a drop in the bucket.
Ballistics theory doesn't diverge from practice very much if at all. If and when it does, it is wrong, needs to be fixed, and will be fixed pretty darn quickly - after all it is science and engineering, and that's how things get done. Wind drift is predictable, and the factors that affect it and the parameters that characterize it are well-known - and bullet weight and bullet diameter are not those parameters. 1000yd BR shooters might think that it is the heavy weight of a big .30 cal bullet that helped them win the match, but that doesn't mean that they are right.
I am guessing that if the UK F/Open team used .308s this July at the F-Class World Championships in Bisley, the American F/Open team (6.5-.284) would have beaten them. Even stipulating that the Brit team had better coaches and a home-field advantage, I don't think that would have been enough of an edge to beat the Americans' 6.5-.284s (which were good rifles, fired by good shooters, directed by good and proven coaches).
- Location
- Virden, MB
I don't believe the 7mm is limited to one bullet. I have used the 180g and 168g bergers with good groups. But I found at long range the 162g Hornady Amax worked really well and I currently shoot those from my 7mmRM.
I am also a huge fan of my 6mmBR but it can't chew through the wind like the 7mmRM.
I am also a huge fan of my 6mmBR but it can't chew through the wind like the 7mmRM.
