which cartridge for long range?

The UK team has used a number of cartridges over the years including 7mm Boo Boo, 6.5X284 and others. They have home field advantage at Stickledown range, and when shooting in 35 MPH cross winds at 1000 yards, its all about the shooter and coach knowing his cartridge - period. (Any guesses as to what barrels they use? ;))

There is no doubt that the slick 7's are the cartridge to beat when they work. I've said that before, but 30's are more of a sure thing load development wise.

As to the 6X47, re-chambered in 6BR, that barrel is literally a one-hole gun. Nothing wrong with the barrel. Never had a Krieger that wasn't stunning. Setting back didn't need much taken off either. Problem solved. The more I f*ck around with the bigger better mousetraps out there, the more I keep coming back to my beloved 6BRs.

The advantage can be slight but there is definitely a trend towards the 7mm for very long F class matches especially if the wind is as extreme as it was in England. It is just that much more forgiving.

The best shooters and coaches in the world can't always pick out every wind quirk every single shot. Dropping the occasional point is what takes you out of contention. But you shoot lots of F class to know all about this.

The 7mm is a very easy cal to set up. Using only a 9 twist, even the super long 180 is not finicky at all. The 162gr Amax works like any other Amax. Just pick a suitable powder and work up.

I am glad that the rechambering worked out ok. I am very surprised that it wouldn't shoot. Oh well, now you have something you can be confident with.

Enjoy...

Jerry
 
blygy, i ordered a stiller!
thanks rick, this is going to be a rifle of around 16 pounds or so. i might hunt a little with it but i am not humping that thing around all day!
as for the .338 i am not sure i want to go into that territory yet, but its not a closed book yet either. do you build quite a few 300 mags or 7mm mags and what do you get for feedback from your customers that are shooting them?

I build far more 300 win mags than 7 rems. The reason being most guys who are hunting the extreme long ranges want the added bullet weight that the 300 has to offer. Most shoot 200 to 210 gr ULDs.
According to the ballistics programs these heavier bullets retain energy down range better than lighter bullets do. I know from experience that when shooting my own 7 Rem versus my own 300 win that the divots in the steel and the amount the gongs jump is significantly greater when hit with the 300.
The 7 certainly gets there without issue and would make paper truly dead, but I believe that to kill something at 1000 or beyond with a 7 Rem is really pushing the envelope beyond any ethical reason. With that being said my 7 only shoots the 162 bullets well, possibly if it was accurate with the bigger bullets I would not feel this way.
For what is is worth my go to rifle for hunting and most long range fun shooting is a 300 win mag. In the weight you are talking about a 300 could be shot all day with minimal shooter fatigue.
 
albertatacticalrifle, for long range hunting are you using match bullets (e.g. Berger .308 210 VLD), or some other special-purpose long range hunting bullets? If the latter, what sorts of bullets are good choices for long range hunting, and what are their key specs (bullet weight, overall length, bc, etc)?
 
albertatacticalrifle, for long range hunting are you using match bullets (e.g. Berger .308 210 VLD), or some other special-purpose long range hunting bullets? If the latter, what sorts of bullets are good choices for long range hunting, and what are their key specs (bullet weight, overall length, bc, etc)?

In my 300 win 208 Amaxs, in my 338LAI 300 gr Matchkings.
I do not walk much while hunting anymore, but if do I chamber a Nosler partition just in case of needing a close range shot. I have found that the match bullets can be unpredictable at close range, but after 500 yards of so work wonderfully.
I try not to shoot any game under 500 yards, but if the critter of a life time puts himself in harms way, to have a bullet that I know will penetrate and expand reliably to me makes sense. If the critter is at distance I always have time to swap out the cartridge.
In the last 5 years I have cleanly killed over 100 animals with either Amaxs or Matchkings. I know there is a controversy over the use of match bullets for hunting, all I know is that they work for me.
 
Had not shot much in many many years, but got interested in it as my brother has a range to 500 yds. I rigged up a 6BR from all I could learn on the net, put in a master class stock with barnard S and a gaillard bbl. and would never shoot anything else.
It shoots 1/4 MOA and that is a lot better than I can usually do at all distances back to 500... See many things brought out the the range and nothing comes close. Especially
most shooters.
And must add. A guns smith that new what I wanted and could put it together.

Thanks Lyle.
 
Here is an interesting presentation of military testing to find the optimum LR cartridge/caliber/bullet that meets and or exceeds military sniping objectives of an effective range from 1200 to 1500 yards concluding with the 300 Win mag with 220 SMK has "comparable accuracy and velocity retention to the 250 SMK 338 Lapua Mag."

w ww.dtic.mil/ndia/2009infantrysmallarms/tuesdaysessioniii8524.pdf
 
I think you are smearing the results a bit.
The article says:
the 220 gr smk and a 250gr lapua have "comparable" velocity retention and accuracy to 1000 yards not 1200 to 1500 yards.

I believe those findings are skewed somewhat because most of the data that I've collected has a 250gr from a Lapua going closer for 3000fps at the muzzle with over 1600fps at 1000 yards.

At 1500 yards is where these two calibres become night and day and I think there is no agruing that point.

BTW I shoot them both in an ATRS built 300 win mag and a 338 lapua in a Sako TRG 42. I have no preference between the two, I just think the .338 is in a completely different league that the .300 win mag can't touch.

Ivo
 
I think you are smearing the results a bit.
The article says:
the 220 gr smk and a 250gr lapua have "comparable" velocity retention and accuracy to 1000 yards not 1200 to 1500 yards.

I think the way I presented the quotes suggests both statements are linked - not my intent. Either way, the point is that the tests conclude the 300 Win mag and 220 SMK work well out to 1500 yards
 
BTW I shoot them both in an ATRS built 300 win mag and a 338 lapua in a Sako TRG 42. I have no preference between the two, I just think the .338 is in a completely different league that the .300 win mag can't touch.

I shoot two 300 RUMS (200 Accubond and 208 Amax, and soon 220 SMK) and a custom 338 Lapua Mag (300 SMK). The 300 RUMS (10 lbs is the heaviest) both have less perceived recoil than my 338 LM (14 lbs), so my preference for the majority of my shooting and LR hunting is always the .300s because they are lighter to pack and easier to shoot. No argument from me that the 338LM/300 SMK is more effective past 1000 yards, but don't ask me to pack it any distance. As per the original post dealing with hunting and a magnum bolt face, the 300 Mag class of cartridges offer the best balance of practicality and external ballistics in my and obviously others experience.
 
.338 250 Sierra HPMK G7bc=.314 2831 m.v., 1500 yards: velocity=1062fps dift(10mph)=183"
.308 220 Sierra HPMK G7bc=.310 2879 m.v., 1500 yards: velocity=1068fps drift(10mph)=182"

Yup, pretty much the same (though with pretty much the same bc and mv, it really has to work out that way!)

A reasonable argument could be made though that if you're going to shoot a .338, that you should use a comparable heavyweight bullet like a 300grain instead of a midweight 250gr. That would give:

.338 300 Sierra HPMK G7bc=.381 2701 m.v., 1500 yards: velocity=1198 drift(10mph)=147"

That's a good solid step up - it's still supersonic @1500y, and is showing 20% less wind drift.
 
rnbra-shooter,
Why would you use a number for the MV of the lapua like 2831fps when right on their website(along with too many other place to list) it puts the velocity of their 250gr bullets close to 3000fps(2970fps to be exact). The history behind the invention of the 338 Lapua was:
1.)to fill the gap between the .308 win and the .50 BMG
2.)to push a 250 gr bullet 3000fps
3.)to arrive at 1000 yards with enough energy to penetrate 5 layers of military body armour and still make the kill.

If the US military had all of this with the .300 win mag and the 220 gr smk they wouldn't have spent so much money paying Research Armaments co. to develop the 338 Lapua magnum.
Neccesity is the mother of invention.

Hey guys, here are some real numbers based on radar data for these two rounds. 338 Lapua with the 300 gr. SMK is the clear winner, it's not close to 1500.

220 gr. Sierra MK @ 2860 fps:

Velocity at Supersonic Range 1122 fps, transitional limit is 1520 yards for operations.

Elevation needed from parallel bore: 67.50
20 mph windage deflection = 23.00 MOA
Flight Time: 2.8 seconds
Danger Space for a 1 meter target: 28 meters (14 meters long or short of the true range needed to strike a 1 meter kill zone on a target, which is generous)

300 gr. Sierra / 338 Lapua MK @ 2860 fps:

Velocity at Supersonic Range 1122 fps, transitional limit is 1825 yards for operations.

Elevation needed from parallel bore: 58.25 MOA
20 mph windage deflection = 18.5 MOA
Flight Time: 2.6 seconds
Danger Space for a 1 meter target: 35 meters (17.5 meters long or short of the true range needed to strike a 1 meter kill zone on a target, which is generous for a killing shot, not much advantage here actually)

Comparison of both rounds at 1600 yards.

338 over the 300 Win Mag by 16% on elevation needed at 1600.
338 over the 300 Win Mag by 24% on windage needed in 20 mph wind at 1600. Huge factor.
Flight time is a slight advantage for the 338 / 300 gr. For this scenario a 250 Lapua FMJBT is a better choice, shorter flight time over 1600 yards.
338 over the 300 Win Mag by 28% in Danger Space data.

Althought I'm using 2 bullets with different BCs I am using the best bullet that each calibre has to offer.

Here is another less important for budgetary factory. The 220 gr. .308 caliber bullet at these pressures and velocities will foul barrels badly and reduce barrel life through fast throat erosion. The 190 Sierra MK was bad enough at 3000 fps on throats. The 338 Lapua using the 300 gr. bullet at a more humble 2850 fps will last a long time.

Again I have no favorite here I just believe in comparing apples to apples. Take two cartridges with bullets that have the same BC and MV and you'll see who wins

As far as practicality I couldn't agree more that the .300 win mag is a better choice for hunting and most work out to 1000yards. Also a clear winner when it comes to reloading and cost.

Ivo
 
ivo I used 2831fps for 338Lapua/250-SMK because that is what the dod report (linked to in post #46) said, and based its "comparable... velocity retention" statement on. Since I was commenting on their results, I used their data. Maybe their .338/250 ammo was fired in shorter-barreled rifles that what the Lapua factory data is based on (probably not). Maybe the US ammo was loaded to substantially lower pressure, in order to meet its -45F..165F operational temperature range requirement?

Interesting that you have radar data - cool! Where's it from? Do you have any other goodies?

Is that radar data (220 SMK @ 2860 --> 1122fps @ 1520) corrected to std atmospheric conditions, or is it for the conditions on the test range that day? I ask because it differs by about 120 yards from using Litz's G7 data (which predicts 1128fps @ 1400y)

Comparison of both rounds at 1600 yards.

338 over the 300 Win Mag by 16% on elevation needed at 1600.

Why does that (elevation) matter?

338 over the 300 Win Mag by 24% on windage needed in 20 mph wind at 1600. Huge factor.

Agreed - huge advantage for the .338-300 over the .300-220 (though some of that advantage comes from the 220-SMK being only a middling-performance bullet; all other things being equal, the .338 should enjoy about a 10% advantage over a .300)

Flight time is a slight advantage for the 338 / 300 gr. For this scenario a 250 Lapua FMJBT is a better choice, shorter flight time over 1600 yards.
338 over the 300 Win Mag by 28% in Danger Space data.

Why is the flight time particularly important?

Here is another less important for budgetary factory. The 220 gr. .308 caliber bullet at these pressures and velocities will foul barrels badly and reduce barrel life through fast throat erosion. The 190 Sierra MK was bad enough at 3000 fps on throats. The 338 Lapua using the 300 gr. bullet at a more humble 2850 fps will last a long time. I had a Dakota T-76 Longbow with over 4000 rounds on board, 300 SMKs and 270 gr. LRBT bullets mostly. The barrel was still strong last I saw it.

Why would you anticipate a major difference in fouling and throat life? The 220-SMK@2850fps is a pretty vanilla loading, I wouldn't expect unusually high pressures? And what does muzzle velocity have to do with either throat life or barrel fouling?

A .300 Win burning ~75 grains of powder scales up to a .338 chambering burning ~100 grains of powder. A .338 Lapua burns about 5%-10% more than that, so proportionately speaking the .338 Lapua is either "approximately the same" as a .300 Win, or if you want to argue the point, "perhaps just a little bit bigger". So it would be expected that a .338 Lapua would have barrel life approximately comparable to, or perhaps just a little bit shorter than, a .300 Win.

Again I have no favorite here I just believe in comparing apples to apples. Take two cartridges with bullets that have the same BC and MV and you'll see who wins

Huh? In this case they'd tie for wind drift, elevation drop and retained velocity. Only difference is that the heavier bullet would have more on-target energy.

(BTW ivo, if the above sounds like I'm being pissy and picky I'm sorry because that's definitely not intended - but I can't easily think how I might rewrite it)
 
rnbra-shooter,
No offence taken to any of this, I don't take these discussions personally where we are just comparing data.

To answer some of your question:
1.)I personally don't see the elevation being a huge factor myself but the facts being what they are the 338 is a flatter shooting rifle. Some may care.

2.)In the above report the wind deflection is 24% better for the 338 which is a huge factor. All things being equal as far as BC goes, yes, the wind drift should be the same on paper till you take the time of flight into consideration. The Lapua having .2 seconds less time of flight would suggest less wind deflection in equal BC bullets. I personally believe that even in the same BC bullets, the heavier one will have less deflection, but thats an opinion with no empirical data to support it.

And the bottom line for the US military I believe was that the 300 win mag didn't have enough punch at 1000 yards, hence the development of the 338 lapua round.

Ivo
 
thanks all for your contributions, i first did research on the 7mm's and while performance is great the feedback i was getting was that in between 700-1000 rounds and the barrel was shot out. i am not interested in the 338's recoil, because i could not shoot more than 20 rounds or match and be beaten up by it! so it sounds like a 300 win mag shooting some vld's or even a 300 wsm maybe with some vld's? i do want a inheritly accurate cartridge for shooting long distance.
 
ajax be sure to consider barrel life quotations on an apples-to-apples basis, and also remember that a big 7mm magnum is simply an *incremental* step away from a big .308 magnum. So the *good* things will change only incrementally (you'll get a *bit* better wind drift performance, a *bit* less recoil, etc), and the *bad* things will also change only incrementally (a *bit* less barrel life)

The 700-1000 round barrel life figure you were quoted is on the short side of what might be expected, and probably makes sense only with the biggest cases and the *most* demanding accuracy requirements (e.g. world-level F-Class rifles). With those same requirements, a same-capacity .308 magnum would have *somewhat* longer life, but not vastly more - as a SWAG, if 75 grains of powder behind a 7mm (.284") bullet is giving you 700-1000 rounds of barrel life, then 75 grains of powder behind a .308" bullet might be expected to give 800-1200 rounds of barrel life. A step in the right direction to be sure, but *NOT* a night-and-day difference. You are *NOT* going to see 3000 rounds of barrel life out of a .300 Win Mag versus 1000 rounds of barrel life out of a 7mm Rem Mag - those are not apples-to-apples figures. Either one of those barrel life figures may well be correct for a particular set of criteria, but they won't *both* be correct with respect to the *same* criteria.

BTW what is the "really long range" that you want your rifle to perform well at? You have said 1500 yards, but are you sure on this? 1500 yards is a long way out, and is a different class of problem to solve than 1200 yards, or 1000 yards, or 800 yards. Each of these steps is a bigger and more expensive problem to solve. If you overspec the range, you'll end up having to overbuild your rifle and that not cheap (if you really wanted to Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200, Go Straight to .50 BMG, I'm sure you would have just said so... ;-) If you really, truly want good 1500 yard performance (and what is meant by "good" needs to be fully pinned down - accuracy? terminal velocity? terminal energy? terminal super/sub sonic?), you'll have to *pay* for it, not only in dollars (but *plenty* of those!!!), but also in overall utility of your rifle - a 24# rifle that truly accomplishes your 1500 yard requirements, is a mighty PITA if all you really needed was the same requirements at 1200yards or 1000 yards (and you've already told us that you want the rifle to be around 16#).

The first rule for long range performance is pretty simple, it's "bigger is better" (this isn't the only rule, but it is the first). Of course bigger is also more expensive, more difficult to shoot, less generally practical and flexible etc

Why not consider a 7mm cartridge in the 7mmRemMag class, i.e.75-80 grains of powder, firing a Hornady 162 AMAX @ 3100fps or a Berger 180 VLD @ 2940fps? Using a 1-10" twist barrel, both are comfortably stable. The 162 AMAX goes subsonic just before 1550 yards in a std. 59F sea level atmosphere, the 180 VLD goes subsonic just past 1575 yards. At 1500 yards they are giving 162" and 153" (respectively) of wind drift in a 10mph crosswind (and 59"/57" at 1000 yards, for comparison purposes - i.e. this is a pretty hot performer!). Compare this performance to a first-rate .308WIn tagrget rifle, e.g. Berger 155.5 Fullbore @ 3000fps - it'll go subsonic just before 1150 yards. The .308/155.5 will have 251" of drift at 1500 yards (where its speed will be 950fps), and will have 91" of drift at 1000 yards.

Basically, whatever a .308/155.5 will do at 1150 yards (speed=M1.0, drift=11.3 minutes), a 7mmMag/162 will do at 1550 yards (speed=M1.0, drift=11.3 minutes). What's the price to be paid for this extra 400 yards of performance?

- The guns themselves will be the same cost (actions are the same cost, barrels are the same, stocks are the same, gunsmithing is the same).

- Recoil and/or gun weight will be comparable; the 7mm/162@3100 will be generate 35%-40% more impulse than the .308/155*3000, which you'll either soak up as increased recoil or increased rifle weight, or some combination. I'd expect either to be eminently shootable or luggable.

- ammo costs will be comparable, to a first approximation I'd call them the same. Primers are the same cost per shot, bullets are pretty similar, brass is pretty similar (per-shot, about the cost of a primer), the 7mm will burn about 75/45 times as much powder, that's about 13c/shot more of $30/# powder.

- barrel life. If barrel wear scales linearly with charge weight and inversely with bore cross sectional area, then the .284"-75 grain cartridge will have roughly 50% the life expectancy of the .308"-45 grain cartridge. So if a .308/155 gives 3000 rounds of acceptable accuracy, the 7mmRemMag will give about 1500 rounds of the same accuracy (you can do the math for other accuracy thresholds). I won't do the math on dollars per shot of barrel life, that's something that every rifle builder should do for himself and get a good feel for how much (or how little!) the price of barrel wear actually is, so that he can intelligently make barrel life tradeoffs that are right for him.

There's one last thing to consider, and that is that the 7mms presently enjoy an unfair advantage over the .30 cals - the very best 7mm bullets that are offered today, are somewhat better (dragwise) than the very best .30 cal bullets offered today. That can and no doubt will change (if and when you hear Berger announcing a .308 230-250 grain VLD, you'll know the day has arrived), but until then the big .30s are somewhat handicapped in delivering their full potential.
 
How would the plain jane 338win perform with the right barrel using the latest in 338 target bullets? Seems to be a bit of a forgotten cartridge lately.
 
A .338 Win Mag firing 300 Sierra MK's at 2450 fps (G7bc=0.381) gives:

- supersonic to almost 1350 yards (so about halfway between a topnotch .308 Win Palma rifle, and a 7mm Rem Mag)

- 1401fps and 68" wind drift at 1000 yards
- 1118fps (M1.0) and 139" (10.3MOA) wind drift at 1350 yards
- 1048fps and 179" of wind drift at 1500 yards

Arguably the 300 Sierra is not the be-all end-all bullet, and superior bullets are almost at hand. Let's say the "Berger 300 Hybrid" (on pg. 328 of Litz's book) pans out; it's G7bc=0.456 will give, at 2450fps in the .338 Win Mag:

- supersonic to almost 1675 yards
- 1000y: 1588fps, 52" wind drift
- 1500y: 1226fps, 134" wind drift
- 1675y: 1115fps (M1.0), 175" (10.4MOA) wind drift

Hmmm, *quite* an impressive step up in performance to be had by using a super bullet, eh....?

(Now what if a .338 Lapua drives that bullet at 2700fps...? ;-)
 
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