White tailed deer: Using trail cams to manage your herd

[Demonical]

That totally depends on your area and the makeup of your deer herd. Many areas have had so many years of your thinking that the ratio of bucks to does is way out of wack and is really not a good thing. In a natural environment, its much closer to 50:50.

Not shooting does is far from being idiotic, in an area that would greatly benefit from a reduction in the doe population.

In many areas it is the smartest thing to do for the health of the herd.

Referencing the highlighted part of your text, you are exactly right, for that part of you statement.

I only hunt crown land, big bush, I hate it when IDIOTS shoot a doe, seeing that deer as nothing but 40-50 lbs of sausage. There are not enough deer in the areas I hunt to sustain the doe KILLING (I won't call it harvest).

Back when they first instituted the doe KILLING, in Alberta WMU's, there was a thriving herd of whitetails in the Swan Hills, where I work/play. Then they brought in the doe KILLING and over the 15 years (or whatever it is since) the deer numbers have absolutely plummeted in those areas. Cuz it's big bush, deep snow, too many wolves, a doe KILL is just not sustainable.

I was pissed off as soon as they brought it in, all my buddies said I was ####ed up worrying about nothing, but I knew immediately the long-term impact. And I was not wrong.

So forgive me for calling people stupid/idiots for KILLING does. It might be you live in a place where the deer are over-populated. That is not the case where I hunt.

 

[umchorn2]

40 to 70 deer per sq mile in Iowa? Wow. that might explain how a third ( edit; not 'half' my bad) of them are carrying...well, you know. Article on it in this Saturday's Post.
I think our density and the viral load they are carrying is just fine... No amateur management req'd IMO. If 30% of WT in Iowa are infected... I'm not going to push for us to emulate their management in any way shape or form.

Yes, while it is true that disease tends to be a problem when deer (as with any other species) are under extreme stress due to overcrowding and malnutrition, a higher population of deer does not always lead to over crowding nor does it always lead to disease transmission. The location that deer live makes disease transmission more likely when given the type of vectors that carry the diseases in the first place. For example the black fly or gnat that transmits EHD (epizootic hemmorrhagic disease) exists in wetter areas of the United States. In wetter years EHD tends flare up in deer populations. So in this case disease outbreaks of EHD are more correlated to the gnats population density rather than the population density of deer.

In general you need to have disease present in order to transmit. If the prevalence of disease is low then the transmission is proportionately low. Furthermore having a larger population of a species will allow it a greater chance of surviving some sort of disease outbreak so long as sufficient genetic diversity exists. This point is highlighted by the fact that we humans grow almost exclusively a variant of banana called the Cavendish banana, which is possibly going extinct because of Panama disease. With so little diversity in the varietal of banana, an outbreak of disease is much more severe in both incidence and prevalence.


So if you’re saying that a high population of deer leads to disease you are not correct. There must be a number of factors that coincide concurrently. Only then will disease become an outbreak. Furthermore diseases have always coexisted with wild populations of animals and always will be present in wild populations. Furthermore, I believe it’s highly preferable to have more deer around than less deer. If not only for the fact that it provides more hunting opportunities, but for the fact that it insulates a population of that species from disease through genetic diversity and the phenotypic expression of the resistance trait that will be passed along from surviving animals to their offspring.

And another reason that it is preferable to have a higher population of animals, in this case deer, rather than a lower population is that thinning a herd is much easier than trying to increase low numbers of a species. Increasing the population of a species can be incredibly difficult and expensive as is the case with the white rhino and likewise the black rhino. The former may in fact be extinct.

 

[tokguy]

umchorn... you lowball the disease stats from the US I think. Considering our 'Time in history' is somewhat marred by a pandemic ( or not... but it makes things busy )...and a news article from a reputable source stating that 30 % of this legendary herd in the midwest has the very feared and targeted disease?
I understand that you are enthusiastic about managing animals... perhaps another stint in school and a job that is better suited for you in Fish & Feathers.
But enthusiasm and game cameras does not make you an expert. I am most assuredly am not knowledgeable about such things... but I'm owning that.
More is not always better... despite what we may think. Maybe leave Game Management to the professionals?

 

[umchorn2]

It’s unfortunate that wildlife management doesn’t pay as well as my current employer and that I didn’t take a degree in environmental studies. But education aside, the provincial wildlife departments are a small club. Many in that government department stay in those positions for a whole career.

So if you’re stuck with an idiot manager then they can really screw things up. But then again what can they really do anyways? It’s the Minister who signs off on the regulations, and chances are they aren’t as serious a hunter or conservationist as myself.

But I realized this long ago and took it upon myself to go the extra mile and own some land for wildlife and help preserve and protect the wildlife and what I love to do...hunt.

So when you suggest that guys like me leave managing wildlife to the professionals...I see one in the mirror every time I look at myself. And thankfully I can afford to own a few hundred acres to manage some wildlife!

 

[trevj]

Umchorn I never shoot does, I think the guys that do are wrong(idiots).

I never shoot immature bucks either, I have 'eaten' more tag soup than venison.

You probably should talk to the actual Wildlife Biologists in your area.

Because when populations go up too high, they hire guys to shoot them from helicopters...

At least, after all the usual measures fail to get the levels down. Otherwise disease sweeps through the herd, or the ticks have a field day and they die off over winter, and nobody but the worms and buzzard are happy.

Dude is here pushing the same Quality Deer Management line as always, except he's too cheap to buy and fence, and stock, his own land, so he thinks he should get everyone else to leave 'his' herd alone so he can attempt to manipulate it.

If he ever DOES actually put the money in to the above, so they truly are HIS deer herd, then I'll care about as much as I care about all the other farmed deer in the States, which is to say, not at all either. But at least he wont be here bothering us about it!

 

[tokguy]

You probably should talk to the actual Wildlife Biologists in your area.

Because when populations go up too high, they hire guys to shoot them from helicopters...

At least, after all the usual measures fail to get the levels down. Otherwise disease sweeps through the herd, or the ticks have a field day and they die off over winter, and nobody but the worms and buzzard are happy.

Dude is here pushing the same Quality Deer Management line as always, except he's too cheap to buy and fence, and stock, his own land, so he thinks he should get everyone else to leave 'his' herd alone so he can attempt to manipulate it.

If he ever DOES actually put the money in to the above, so they truly are HIS deer herd, then I'll care about as much as I care about all the other farmed deer in the States, which is to say, not at all either. But at least he wont be here bothering us about it!

trevj- that is Bambi's mom! We can't shoot Bambi's mom!

 

[iron cat]

It is impossible for one person to manage a deer herd UNLESS it is a high fenced operation.
Way too many other variables involved like other hunters, other deer coming and going and of course natural predators and poachers .
Cat

 

[Dogleg]

Managing deer on 80 acres is a fantasy. 40 acre home ranges in Sask? Yeah right. Deer at carrying capacity in cropland. Oh boy,’do you think the farmers and ranchers are going put up with that? Hell, SGI isn’t going to put up with that.

One bad winter and the dream falls apart.

 

[trevj]

trevj- that is Bambi's mom! We can't shoot Bambi's mom!

LOL!


Yes! Yes we can shoot Bambi's Mom!

Fact is, Bambi's mom likely tastes a whole LOT better than if we shot Bambi!

Because some rutted up POS of buck, is NOT gonna taste better than an ordinary deer!

 

[trevj]

It is impossible for one person to manage a deer herd UNLESS it is a high fenced operation.
Way too many other variables involved like other hunters, other deer coming and going and of course natural predators and poachers .
Cat

Yeah, no Chit!

But we have been trying to tell that to anyone that has been even a little bit interested in what this clown has to say, since he started here!

 

[umchorn2]

Yeah, no Chit!

But we have been trying to tell that to anyone that has been even a little bit interested in what this clown has to say, since he started here!

Why am I a clown? Because I practice quality deer management principles and advocate for sound deer management and responsible hunting on a public forum? Because I put my money where my mouth is and buy land for conservation which benefits wildlife as well as other hunters?
Or because I’ve passed on more bucks than you’ve ever seen?

You have a lot to say but nothing valuable to add. Time to learn how to hunt, pal. Pay attention to my posts and become a better hunter and conservationist. And chip in some cash to your local wildlife organization you cheapskate.

 

[Demonical]

Buddy if you hunt public land it is impossible to do anything to 'manage your herd', since the land is shared by thousands of other people. And you have ZERO control over their actions; whether they are shooting all the does, young bucks etc...

So I hear ya, sort of, cuz I never shoot does or young deer bucks either.

But those small bucks we pass up are gonna get shot by the next crew of road hunters anyway.

So really all a person can do is hunt within their own set of 'ethics'.

 

[Dogleg]

If:
You had a sufficient landbase and a highfence, and you owned the deer inside it, and if you have a supplimental feeding program going you might have a chance.

First kill every buck that isnt a decent 5 point plus or a yearling. Continue that for 3 years then shoot every old buck and every old doe that you can’t prove has produced decent offspring already. Then every deer in your herd will be the direct offspring of a decent buck. Then you can think about getting a little more age on your bucks to see what you
have. Those that don’t gets a bullet and so does its mother. Good luck.

 

[coyoteking]

Why am I a clown? Because I practice quality deer management principles and advocate for sound deer management and responsible hunting on a public forum? Because I put my money where my mouth is and buy land for conservation which benefits wildlife as well as other hunters?
Or because I’ve passed on more bucks than you’ve ever seen?

You have a lot to say but nothing valuable to add. Time to learn how to hunt, pal. Pay attention to my posts and become a better hunter and conservationist. And chip in some cash to your local wildlife organization you cheapskate.

I think it’s because you pretend to be a voice of authority on a subject you obviously know very little about.

 

[stubblejumper]

I was actually surprised at how many whitetail bucks there are in the area I hunt, after seeing six different bucks on one camera. I am hunting a specific deer for the first time this year, because of the camera. I have exclusive permission on the property, and the adjoining landowners don't hunt or allow hunting, with a large valley with no roads behind, so my chances of taking the buck that I want are decent.

 

[trevj]

Why am I a clown? Because I practice quality deer management principles and advocate for sound deer management and responsible hunting on a public forum? Because I put my money where my mouth is and buy land for conservation which benefits wildlife as well as other hunters?
Or because I’ve passed on more bucks than you’ve ever seen?

You have a lot to say but nothing valuable to add. Time to learn how to hunt, pal. Pay attention to my posts and become a better hunter and conservationist. And chip in some cash to your local wildlife organization you cheapskate.

You have made a good start at why I figure you are a clown. Someone else quite succinctly pointed out the rest of it.

So, I should learn how to hunt? Awesome. Will you ever learn not to try to sell us on (Attempting to be) Farming free-range deer?

You have absolutely no idea how many deer I have seen, though a couple of the guys here on CGN, were there too. Herds in the thousands, all taking advantage of one very piss-poor farmer. Then, they died off. Gone. So the crows ate well, but otherwise, there wasn't much benefit to anyone for having that many around. But they were well fed, before the diseases got them! The joys of a high density population! Disease spreads easily!

I'm sitting on 1500 acres of deeded land, with perhaps five or six times that, in Crown land above our property. And yet, I have a far more accurate idea than you do, about who owns the deer here, and what exactly I can do about the so called quality of them.

Call us back, when you have fenced and stocked your high fence operation. Or just go back to reading about a fantasy world where you have some sort of an impact on the local deer herd, that you don't actually have any control over. Maybe go hang around on a horn-farming website, and swap pictures with the rest of the fenced in deer farmers.

 

[the spank]

You have made a good start at why I figure you are a clown. Someone else quite succinctly pointed out the rest of it.

So, I should learn how to hunt? Awesome. Will you ever learn not to try to sell us on (Attempting to be) Farming free-range deer?

You have absolutely no idea how many deer I have seen, though a couple of the guys here on CGN, were there too. Herds in the thousands, all taking advantage of one very piss-poor farmer. Then, they died off. Gone. So the crows ate well, but otherwise, there wasn't much benefit to anyone for having that many around. But they were well fed, before the diseases got them! The joys of a high density population! Disease spreads easily!

I'm sitting on 1500 acres of deeded land, with perhaps five or six times that, in Crown land above our property. And yet, I have a far more accurate idea than you do, about who owns the deer here, and what exactly I can do about the so called quality of them.

Call us back, when you have fenced and stocked your high fence operation. Or just go back to reading about a fantasy world where you have some sort of an impact on the local deer herd, that you don't actually have any control over. Maybe go hang around on a horn-farming website, and swap pictures with the rest of the fenced in deer farmers.

100% but talking to him is about as effective as ...but I concur he's totally a clown, a high fence hunting clown!!

 

[trevj]

100% but talking to him is about as effective as ...but I concur he's totally a clown, a high fence hunting clown!!

Sorry, I disagree. He WANTS to be a high fence hunting clown, but is unwilling to spend his own money stocking the yard.

A bunch of pictures, is not nearly the same thing as "Management", unless one has the ability to cull out all those that are not breeder material, as well as to ensure only the best bucks, cover the best producing does. In other words, being a Farmer!

Else (going by what pictures we see) we should expect him to try to breed the bear to the moose, and then cross it out to the coyote! At least, if we are to believe that having a trail cam up somewhere over a food pile is some form of "Management"!

 

[the spank]

Sorry, I disagree. He WANTS to be a high fence hunting clown, but is unwilling to spend his own money stocking the yard.

A bunch of pictures, is not nearly the same thing as "Management", unless one has the ability to cull out all those that are not breeder material, as well as to ensure only the best bucks, cover the best producing does. In other words, being a Farmer!

Else (going by what pictures we see) we should expect him to try to breed the bear to the moose, and then cross it out to the coyote! At least, if we are to believe that having a trail cam up somewhere over a food pile is some form of "Management"!

Nailed it!!

 

[canadian hunter312]

A question for you Canadian hunter 312...do you really think there are that many areas in Canada that are overpopulated with deer and require management techniques such as specifically targeting does to reduce herd numbers? The average deer density in Canada is in general is no where near the carrying capacity, which of course varies across eco zones like west coast rainforest to prairie to boreal forest to farm land etc.

Just as an example to highlight my point, a 10,000 acre PFRA pasture in Saskatchewan’s aspen parkland region might run approximately 700 head of cattle. Yet that same pasture has no where near 700 deer. In the absence of the cattle what would the population of deer be?

In parts of the USA like Iowa and the midwest they can have anywhere from 40 to 70 deer per square mile. Meanwhile in Canada we would be lucky to have 15 or 20 under ideal conditions. Just because you hit a pocket of deer somewhere herded up together of maybe 20 animals does not mean that every piece of land has that density. You might have to travel several miles and cover a few thousand acres to find that many animals again.

If hunters on average shot 4 or 5 year old bucks or older then the population would more closely approximate the real population demographics of what a true deer population should look like. Now look at the two deer on my cam pics that I have posted that are 5 year olds and tell me you would not rather shoot those deer than the yearling buck near the top pic.

I was replying to Demonical referring to everyone who shots does as "idiots", which is such an ignorant and moronic statement that I cannot believe anyone would even say such a thing today. The majority of hunters understand herd management and the need for proper buck to doe ratios, but there's still a few uneducated dinosaurs who still follow the logic that hunters must only shoot bucks.

I've been deer hunting for 20 years and in our area there has been a 95-100% tag success rate for anterless deer with annual tags ranging from 1 to 6 anterless deer per hunter. There are deer everywhere and managers must use hunters to keep deer numbers in check along with the odd organized cull in some areas.

Different areas and different deer populations require different management practices. Some areas may require little to no doe harvest while others may require a significant number of does to be killed each season to keep the herd healthy.

I know some trophy hunters have this egotistical attitude that real men only shoot the biggest bucks and any "man" shooting a doe is inferior, but the fact remains that the majority of hunters have zero problem taking does.