Who manufactures or tunes the best reproduction Winchester 1873
- Thread starter DANCESWITHEMPTIES
- Start date
Lee moulds work well, but they can overheat. If your bullets start coming out looking frosted, let the mold cool a little and then try again. Steel molds are more temperature stable, but are 3x the cost.
DANCESWITHEMPTIES; The six cavity moulds produce good bullets, but come with a learning curve. Mostly in learning how to get the mould up to an overall consistent temperature quickly enough, so that the cavities fill evenly. So, if your casting time is limited, this is one consideration.
Also: expect more rejects during the early part of the casting session. Which can be both time consuming and frustrating, at times. It's pretty much a given, that you should pre-heat these moulds, in advance. Same as when using a steel mould. This helps. On the plus side, once you get the moulds up to speed, they can produce a lot of bullets in a relatively short time. Note: I found that ladle pouring was more efficient for getting consistent pours.
The moulds can get heavy over an extended casting session, though. Not good, if you suffer from tendonitis, arthritis, etc., in hands or wrists.
Over the years, I've come to prefer the simple, 2 cavity moulds. Mostly, because I found them to be quicker and easier to set up and run, than their 6-cavity brothers. As long as I did my part. The 2-cavity moulds come up to casting temp very quickly, produce fewer rejects and produce good bullets.
To up my production capacity, I run 2 moulds in tandem during each casting session. Sometimes 3 moulds. But rarely, unless I need to slam out a lot of bullets in a hurry. I found that once you develop a good, consistent casting rhythm, this method can also produce a lot of bullets, in a relatively short period of time.
A couple of Lee moulds I've had good success with, are the 158 grain (358-158 RF) mould, and 125 grain mould(358-125 RF). Both these moulds are also available in 6-cavity models. It bears mentioning that I own and use a 6-cavity, 125 grain mould . Though not very often, anymore.
Regardless of model, the Lee moulds are capable of turning out good bullets. I do own moulds from other manufacturers. Including some custom mould makers. But, most often turn to Lee moulds for the majority of my casting needs. The moulds are relatively inexpensive and produce good bullets. They work.
Al
Hope this helps.
Also: expect more rejects during the early part of the casting session. Which can be both time consuming and frustrating, at times. It's pretty much a given, that you should pre-heat these moulds, in advance. Same as when using a steel mould. This helps. On the plus side, once you get the moulds up to speed, they can produce a lot of bullets in a relatively short time. Note: I found that ladle pouring was more efficient for getting consistent pours.
The moulds can get heavy over an extended casting session, though. Not good, if you suffer from tendonitis, arthritis, etc., in hands or wrists.
Over the years, I've come to prefer the simple, 2 cavity moulds. Mostly, because I found them to be quicker and easier to set up and run, than their 6-cavity brothers. As long as I did my part. The 2-cavity moulds come up to casting temp very quickly, produce fewer rejects and produce good bullets.
To up my production capacity, I run 2 moulds in tandem during each casting session. Sometimes 3 moulds. But rarely, unless I need to slam out a lot of bullets in a hurry. I found that once you develop a good, consistent casting rhythm, this method can also produce a lot of bullets, in a relatively short period of time.
A couple of Lee moulds I've had good success with, are the 158 grain (358-158 RF) mould, and 125 grain mould(358-125 RF). Both these moulds are also available in 6-cavity models. It bears mentioning that I own and use a 6-cavity, 125 grain mould . Though not very often, anymore.
Regardless of model, the Lee moulds are capable of turning out good bullets. I do own moulds from other manufacturers. Including some custom mould makers. But, most often turn to Lee moulds for the majority of my casting needs. The moulds are relatively inexpensive and produce good bullets. They work.
Al
Hope this helps.
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- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
This has been my experience over the yrs as well. Lee molds have been my go to since the 70's. No gripes on 'em from my end.
Thanks Al fer saving me a bunch of explaining time.
My limited casting has been for muzzle loaders and a few C&B revolvers I own. I'm pretty sure there all Lyman steel moulds of one or two cavities. My thought was the ability to cast six or two at a time as needed. I've casted very few times but think in the future it may be more out of necessity over the want to have a particular bullet. I figure reloading components aren't going to get easier to find... With this rifle I'd like to develop a load that could huck a 158 grain lead bullet around 1200-1300 FPS accurately. 2-2 1/2 moa at 75 yards would be more than perfect in my books. Maybe I'm dreaming, but every guy has got to dream LOL!
fingers284
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Alberta Cowboy Ranges
Good post Alex I agree that Lee molds are a very usable price controlled option. I have one of the six hole molds as well and would like to add to your "learning curve" comment. When I started with this mold of course I tried it as advertised but soon learned its a lot like training new cowboy shooters, They all want to load up a full cylinder and have at a bank of targets...but I tell every one of them to load one shell and hit one target, continue this until you can hit the target dead center every time then try two targets and onwards learn to walk before running...same thing with a six holer mold start using 2 or 3 holes same as your other molds then use another hole & so on again...a lot less frustration that can build to throwing the thing across the room LOL. Every time I use that mold I start out pouring 3 holes, the hardest thing to get good with one of these molds is old eye sight, if the first 3 holes are clear vision the last 3 may not be at a proper focal length so seating distance from the pot is critical Ive found. I realize the pot spout stays where it is, its seeing the holes come to rest under the spout in perfect line up that takes practice.
Dances...2-2.5" groups at that range with home cast is a minimum expectation for me and I certainly "aint no master caster", I think you will be pleasantly surprised by how well home casting can be made to shoot.
Dances...2-2.5" groups at that range with home cast is a minimum expectation for me and I certainly "aint no master caster", I think you will be pleasantly surprised by how well home casting can be made to shoot.
DANCESWITHEMPTIES: The .357 is certainly capable of attaining muzzle velocities in the 1200-plus fps range. Whether the combination will also deliver good accuracy, is another thing. Only your rifle can tell the story. But, I can tell you that the Miroku rifles are certainly capable of holding groups at 3" or better(being very conservative, here. Generally much tighter), at 75 yards. Provided the guy behind the butt plate does his part, too.
At those velocities, I would recommend going to a fairly hard alloy. Lyman #2 alloy should deliver good results. Also, go to a gas-checked bullet, if possible.
In which case, the Lee C-358-158-SWC. mold should suit your needs. There are other manufacturers offering similar molds. But, the Lee is a practical, inexpensive choice.
As far as powder choice and load development goes, I've found that either Unique or Universal(practically identical in burn rate and performance), are good powders to start with. Of course there are others. But, I've always had good results going with these. Though finding powder of any kind might be tricky, right now.
I certainly agree with you that,rolling your own ammo is likely the best route to take, considering the uncertain future of component supply. I suspect that getting reloading components(as well as loaded ammo), is going to be an uphill battle for the forseeable future. Bullet casting is certainly a good way to keep a good supply of projectiles on hand. So if a guy can get ahead of the curve even a little, right now...that`s a good place to be in.
Al
Edit: Fingers284: I like your analogy of bullet casting and new cowboy shooters. Yep...there can be quite a learning curve, with either. When I first started casting with 6-holers, I did the same thing too, until finally figuring out how to run all of them at one go.
And yes....it can be very pleasantly surprising, how easy it is to punch small groups on target, using home cast bullets. The satisfaction of knowing that you created the bullets that made this possible, is another great reward.
At those velocities, I would recommend going to a fairly hard alloy. Lyman #2 alloy should deliver good results. Also, go to a gas-checked bullet, if possible.
In which case, the Lee C-358-158-SWC. mold should suit your needs. There are other manufacturers offering similar molds. But, the Lee is a practical, inexpensive choice.
As far as powder choice and load development goes, I've found that either Unique or Universal(practically identical in burn rate and performance), are good powders to start with. Of course there are others. But, I've always had good results going with these. Though finding powder of any kind might be tricky, right now.
I certainly agree with you that,rolling your own ammo is likely the best route to take, considering the uncertain future of component supply. I suspect that getting reloading components(as well as loaded ammo), is going to be an uphill battle for the forseeable future. Bullet casting is certainly a good way to keep a good supply of projectiles on hand. So if a guy can get ahead of the curve even a little, right now...that`s a good place to be in.
Al
Edit: Fingers284: I like your analogy of bullet casting and new cowboy shooters. Yep...there can be quite a learning curve, with either. When I first started casting with 6-holers, I did the same thing too, until finally figuring out how to run all of them at one go.
And yes....it can be very pleasantly surprising, how easy it is to punch small groups on target, using home cast bullets. The satisfaction of knowing that you created the bullets that made this possible, is another great reward.
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Does the Lee C-358-158-SWC load well in the Miroku? Was of the impression with the posts here the round nose or round flat nose was a better choice? I have always had better accuracy with wad or semi wadcutters. Found that the wad cutter can also make a nice hunting round on thin skin game.
DANCESWITHEMPTIES: You're right. Loading could be problematic, with the 1873. I admit, I've used this particular bullet in my Rossi 1892 (primary use as plinking/hunting rifle. Miroku a competition rifle, exclusively), which handles the semi-wadcutter shape quite well. But, not in the 1873. A brain fade, on my part. Was thinking more of your velocity goal, rather than platform, at the time. Blame it on 'Oldtimers'.
The bullets will still load, though not smoothly, like their roundnosed counterparts. The sharp shoulders of the semi-wadcutters have a tendency to jam in the chamber mouth, often requiring a bit of coaxing to get them to chamber. Which makes this bullet type unreliable, if a fast follow-up shot is required.
The Lee 158 grain RNFP should still offer good results though, when cast from fairly hard alloy. This one I have used extensively in my 1873's. At the velocities you'd like, it will offer plenty of penetration. But, little to no expansion. Something to consider, if you choose to go after anything other than small game. You may even find the 125 grain RNFP bullet a better choice on small game.
Al
EDIT: ps: Something I hadn't considered before, was the use of powder coated bullets. These can be cast from soft lead. They hold up very well at higher velocities. Plus, expand reliably. In which case, the Lee 158 grain RNFP would likely deliver good results on a variety of game. Something to consider.
The bullets will still load, though not smoothly, like their roundnosed counterparts. The sharp shoulders of the semi-wadcutters have a tendency to jam in the chamber mouth, often requiring a bit of coaxing to get them to chamber. Which makes this bullet type unreliable, if a fast follow-up shot is required.
The Lee 158 grain RNFP should still offer good results though, when cast from fairly hard alloy. This one I have used extensively in my 1873's. At the velocities you'd like, it will offer plenty of penetration. But, little to no expansion. Something to consider, if you choose to go after anything other than small game. You may even find the 125 grain RNFP bullet a better choice on small game.
Al
EDIT: ps: Something I hadn't considered before, was the use of powder coated bullets. These can be cast from soft lead. They hold up very well at higher velocities. Plus, expand reliably. In which case, the Lee 158 grain RNFP would likely deliver good results on a variety of game. Something to consider.
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fingers284
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Alberta Cowboy Ranges
There is a way to make SWC load smoothly into a toggle action riflebut requires a separate step in the reloading process. I have done this but only because I was gifted a couple thousand hard cast commercial SWC .358 slugs and being a cheap bastart "they had to work somehow in my cowboy rifle". this is a simple fix that worked for me...after loading and completing the crimp stage, usually last function in loading my cowboy ammo, I adjusted the die up a bit so the crimp cut in the chamber didnt contact anything when a shell was at the top of its stroke then I spun the round nose bullet seater down a few turns so that the bullet shoulder was contacted by the ogive curve slightly, this slightly rounded the shoulder a bit so a straight feed into the chamber can be accomplished without a "bump stop". The case crimp holds the slug from being seated deeper and holds enough to re-shape the slug shoulder.
Probably not an option if your shooting bullseye at 200 yrds but for close steel plates I never noticed a difference in hit count.
I should add this was done with RCBS dies so your dies if different might not give the same results, I also have Dillon dies but never tried this with them.
Probably not an option if your shooting bullseye at 200 yrds but for close steel plates I never noticed a difference in hit count.
I should add this was done with RCBS dies so your dies if different might not give the same results, I also have Dillon dies but never tried this with them.
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Fingers284:
Your method for rounding the sharp shoulder on a semi-wadcutter has me intrigued. I have a nice old RCBS .358 mold(Picked this one up sometime in the mid-1970's, if memory serves), that I am very fond of. The mold drops really clean, 158 grain Keith-type bullets. I have found this design to offer great accuracy in every firearm I've shot it in. Including my '92 Rossi, which eats them like candy.
My 1873's hate the bullets, though. As the slugs' sharp, 90-degree shoulders invariably hang up on the chamber mouth, whenever I try to feed them from the magazine tube. They will feed singly. With a bit of care in lining them up to the chamber. Plus, deliver good accuracy.
Once the weather co-operates, I will cast a bunch of these and give it a try. If all goes well, I have another reason to resurrect that mold and put it back into active service, again.
Thanks for sharing.
Al
Your method for rounding the sharp shoulder on a semi-wadcutter has me intrigued. I have a nice old RCBS .358 mold(Picked this one up sometime in the mid-1970's, if memory serves), that I am very fond of. The mold drops really clean, 158 grain Keith-type bullets. I have found this design to offer great accuracy in every firearm I've shot it in. Including my '92 Rossi, which eats them like candy.
My 1873's hate the bullets, though. As the slugs' sharp, 90-degree shoulders invariably hang up on the chamber mouth, whenever I try to feed them from the magazine tube. They will feed singly. With a bit of care in lining them up to the chamber. Plus, deliver good accuracy.
Once the weather co-operates, I will cast a bunch of these and give it a try. If all goes well, I have another reason to resurrect that mold and put it back into active service, again.
Thanks for sharing.
Al
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- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
The whole point of wadcutters was that sharp shoulder cutting a nice neat hole in a paper target and making it easier to score, especially when you were just outside a ring but the shoulder cut it so you scored higher!
But that's for revolver games, and doesn't play well with a nice lever gun that needs to feed cleanly and really ought to be using proper RNFP bullets. And that's not to mention that cowboys are shooting steel not paper.
There's always a workaround, though!
(I think I have a box of SWC caught betwixt and between my usual reloading requirements, and shall have to remember this technique...)
But that's for revolver games, and doesn't play well with a nice lever gun that needs to feed cleanly and really ought to be using proper RNFP bullets. And that's not to mention that cowboys are shooting steel not paper.
There's always a workaround, though!
(I think I have a box of SWC caught betwixt and between my usual reloading requirements, and shall have to remember this technique...)
