Whole New Can of Worms

c-fbmi

c-fbmi

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I'm going to open one up here just because I'm bored and I want to shoot my double 470 NE more. I have managed to acquire some 400 and some 325 gn bullets in.475 jacketed. Of course there is absolutely no data anywhere for reduced loads in the 470 NE and even the 45-120 3 1/4" doesn't show any bullets lighter than 500 gn and they are lead. I don't really care if it regulates real well but I will see if it will at a given load, maybe around the same velocity as the 500s. Recoil isn't really the issue, it's the 2 bucks a pop Woodleigh bullets and 110 grs of powder that bites.

Anyway I was flipping through loading manuals and low and behold there were some reduced loads for the 460 Wby with 400 grns down between 1800-2100 fps using H4198 which I just happen to have. So I thought the case capacity is close so I checked my 378 Wby case with the 470 NE and the 470 actually holds a touch more than the 378/460 Wby case.

Not having much experience with reduced loads I'm guessing that given similar case capacities and bullet weights that these 460 reduced loads should work just fine in my 470 NE. Should I use a filler like Dacron or cotton balls is my only question I guess at this point? The 4198 load would about 1/2 fill the case, so there will be significant air without a filler, does it matter?
 
In my experience, you should try filling up the case (to the base of the seated bullet) with "kapok" or a similar filler.
This will help to ensure even/uniform ignition.

I had a similar experience using Reloder 15 in my 450-400 3" NE, and played around with the filler that our destroyed dog toys were stuffed with. Also tried foam cylinders, cut using a case with a sharpened case mouth.

My preference for reduced loads is Trailboss. It fills the case nicely and, in my double, happened to regulate to the same POA as with full-power loads.
 
Thought of Trail Boss but have none and neither does the LGS. Another forum said do not use in the big NE cases for some reason or other........pressure spikes or something, I didn't really grasp the conversation. I think they were guys that knew nothing about Trail Boss, but I could be wrong..........I have never used it, I like Unique for mid range pistol loads, and I have been using 4198 and 3031 in the big Winchester cases for factory original velocity loads, they seem to work quite well.
 
Cast bullets and trail boss powder. I bought the mould from Lyman, I just tried powder coating so I may try that next.
 
Powder is tricky, as they don't all behave alike. I use small loads of pistol powder (Titegroup) under cast with no filler. It's not position sensitive, nor prone to kabloomy issues like small doses of slower magnum powders.

I have no clue about 470NE, so no insights there, but I couldn't find data for 4198 under cast in 6.5x55. Found it for carcano, and jap so I will be trying it based on those being pretty close (yet smaller).
 
Just checking Graeme Wright's book Shooting the British Double Rifle .
I'm not finding any reduced loads for the .470 (good book though).
He does state in the section on practice loads,
"There is a common rule of thumb which suggests 75% of the normal bullet weight".
Which I assume he means with the standard powder charge.
As to fillers Dacron and foam backing rod seem to be the most popular fillers where required.

Ross Seyfreid has said that pretending nitro rifles are BP guns and using H4198 in nitro for black loads works well.
That's to say
40% of the BP powder charge with H4198 ,filler and a light bullet.
I hope to try it out soon
 
I'm in the same boat and have been having issues in finding load data for my .500 Jeffery. I've had to borrow and extrapolate from other cartridge data as well. One powder that I used is 2400 and it seems fairly common for cast loads in big bore rifles without filler. In the end, it's going to be a crap shoot (hopefully not literally) seeing how it works, since I haven't fired any of my cast 500gr and 595gr loads yet.

Technically, cartridges with straighter walls are safer when using faster powders since the big bullet opens up a lot of space quickly as it moves down the barrel and therefore isn't prone to big pressure spikes the way a bottlenecked cartridge is. This is why handgun cartridges do so well with shotgun powders, and are safe, to boot.
 
Well I decided to try the reduced load using 60 gns of H4198 with a Fed 215 and Dacron filler behind the 400 gn XTP bullet. This was the load suggested as a reduced load for a 460 Wby and it should be somewhere around 2000 fps. I may be somewhat higher velocity because of the larger base diameter and less bearing surface of the .475 bullet, but it should still be like shooting a 10 1/2 lb, really well balanced 45-70.
Assuming all works as planned..............I'll get back to y'all on whether it blows up my double or not, actually I foresee no issues and I believe this should be a good safe reduced load, given all the research I have done with smokeless powder and all my old big Winchester cartridges. Burned up lots of 4198 and 3031 matching factory BP ballistics in much weaker actions than my Merkel, without incident.
 
When I want reduced loads I usually go straight to 4759. It's bulky, fills the case with light charge weights and was designed for reduced loads in the first place. Always seems to work and great for cast loads. If I'm going to run at half throttle the bullets may as well be free.

I remember like yesterday when I was getting started with cast bullets and asked advice from an experienced and very wealthy local gent. He just sort of grinned and asked me if I wanted to do it the easy way or the hard way.
 
4198 will work OK in reduced loads. But you shouldn't need filler. If you do use filler, make sure it touches the base of the bullet, or you risk ringing the barrels.
 
Fargone4sure said:
4198 will work OK in reduced loads. But you shouldn't need filler. If you do use filler, make sure it touches the base of the bullet, or you risk ringing the barrels.
Click to expand...



I was under the impression that only applied to black powder.............why would a progressive burning smokeless powder cause this? It doesn't when no filler is used.............
 
c-fbmi said:
I was under the impression that only applied to black powder.............why would a progressive burning smokeless powder cause this? It doesn't when no filler is used.............
Click to expand...

It is believed to happen when using polyester/dacron etc filler, when people use a tuft of it up against the powder charge. Upon ignition the filler slams up against the bullet base, causing a ring in the chamber. Easily avoided by using enough filler to make contact with the base of the bullet. Or even better by not using a filler at all. Lots of faster powders are not position sensitive, 2400 probably being the best. 4198 may be somewhat position sensitive, and cause some stringing unless a filler is used. But lots of folks use 4198, rel7 etc, and just tilt the barrel up before shooting to settle powder up against the primer.

Ringing can absolutely happen with smokeless powder, but the culprit is the filler. And this is why lots of folks avoid it.
 
Well, I didn't use a little dab just over the powder but I'm not 100% sure every case was filled to the bullet base, there might be 1/8" gap in some. I suspect that it will likely expand to fill the case over a short time frame as this Dacron stuffer has significant memory and was a real PITA to get started in the case mouth........like trying to herd cats into a cage.........
I can always give the case a few good taps on the nose at the bench before firing, this should move the filler and powder up against the bullet if it's not already there. I had problems with 4198 in my 45-90 using WLRP and no filler........it would hang fire and actually squibbed one load and seated the bullet 2" into the barrel. It was a very low pressure load which I have increased lately as I was having ignition problems and a lot of crap on the outside of the necks and a lot of unburnt powder in the bore and fired cases. Obviously not reaching the needed pressure to efficiently burn the 4198.


Although these bullets were not free as in cast lead ones, they did cost me less than $0.60 ea, so I have none of the crap of casting and I'm running jacketed bullets down my bores for less than 1/2 the price of Woodleighs, or any other .470 NE bullets on the market. I also don't have to worry about lubes and leading my bores and I can run them right up to 2200 fps if I want to attempt to get them to regulate in the Merkel.........no downside to cheap jacketed bullets I can see and I got enough to really do some playing with the double.
 
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Yes, 4198 can be a bugger to get to ignite well sometimes. Make sure you have a real good crimp. That helps.

You are probably OK with that much filler.
 
From Shooting Times online -

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_handloading_the_biggest_cartridges_020811/

".470 Nitro Express
I initially loaded a few .470 NE reduced loads using Accurate Arms .50-140 Sharps recipes as a go-by. Fifty to 55 grains of XMR 5744 and a 425-grain LBT cast or 400-grain Speer Gold Dot softpoint bullet essentially duplicates the buffalo cartridge ballistics..."

I use just enough polyester fill (pillow stuffing) to keep the powder against the primer, not a compressed wad. Seems to work fine in reduced loads in my 458 Lott using Re7.

31857111703_f3292d5b58_b.jpg
 
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