Why 223's are a poor long range choice

paperslayer

paperslayer

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If anyone hasn't hear of German (HERman) Salazar, he is one of those incredibly accomplished multi-discipline long range shooters from the US that is also a methodical researcher.

In a forum where the more posts you have decides your credibility, it is worth stepping back and taking in some of the technical research done by pros.

Here is a very good article by German on the 223 http://riflemansjournal.########.ca/2012/03/cartridges-223-for-palma-competition.html

his blog has really excellent articles that properly answer questions that are based on proper research and qualified experimentation.

http://riflemansjournal.########.ca/p/articles-index.html
 
Good article. Personally, I've always thought of .223 out to say 500 to 600m but any longer it is better to look at a bigger projectile. Having said that, I do know of people who shoot .223 at substantially longer distances.
 
paperslayer said:
if anyone hasn't hear of german (herman) salazar, he is one of those incredibly accomplished multi-discipline long range shooters from the us that is also a methodical researcher.

in a forum where the more posts you have decides your credibility, it is worth stepping back and taking in some of the technical research done by pros.

Here is a very good article by german on the 223 http://riflemansjournal.########.ca/2012/03/cartridges-223-for-palma-competition.html

his blog has really excellent articles that properly answer questions that are based on proper research and qualified experimentation.

http://riflemansjournal.########.ca/p/articles-index.html
Click to expand...

bs!
 
I don't know of anyone that claims that 223 is one of the best long-range cartridges around. But... it's an inexpensive and fairly accurate cartridge that allows new shooters as well as seasoned veterans to shoot to longish distances using common and easy to find factory ammunition and reloading supplies at very reasonable prices. It is still competitive enough to place well in competition, and, as stated before, has been the introduction projectile (along with the 308) for the majority of new precision shooters.
 
All the same arguments apply to your beloved 6BR but you don't seem to be singing those blues :)

Still shooting Kriegers or are you shooting at all?

As I illustrated in that very long post of mine, the 223 is more then accurate for LR shooting even in competition. The problem is under conditions that are unpredictable and bumpy, the lighter bullet will always get pushed around more then a big heavy bullet of similar ballistics. Very obvious out at 1000yds.

This has nothing to do with ballistics coefficient and everything to do with INERTIA.

In open, the trend to 7mm and 30cals for 1000yds matches reinforces this fact. I have seen what a 215gr out of 30cal magnum can do in some very bumpy, blustery air and it is so very impressive.

I scored a 6mm something or other in Raton that shot amazing accuracy (was working on 6 shots within a 5" group - hit the spotter a few times too) until conditions switched and then launched out to the 7 ring. Unfortunately, it switched soon after and another 7 was scored in the opposite direction. Then another... from x's to 7's in a gust of wind. We could feel his pain....

At 1000yd, there is replacement for displacement

The 223 will continue to serve very well as a competitive round at moderate distances and as an excellent pratice rd at 1000yds. powders and loading tech have progressed over the last little while to remove most of the issues that German discussed. If you can learn to drive with a 223, competiting with a 308 will be so much easier.

Some top US FTR shooters continue to use the 223 out to 600yds and they seem very happy with that competitive level. Then they bring out the heavy iron for 1000yds or gale force winds.

I have done well out to 600m, not so well out to 1000yds.

No different then your local shooters using 6BR and Dashers out to moderate distances then swapping to 7's for heavy winds or out to 1000yds.

So competitive really boils down to how far that target stand is and the winds in between.
Jerry
 
Not sure what the purpose of this thread is..... really.

The 223 Rem is a great calibre; fun to shoot, and if you want to be competitive, forces you to pay attention to your reloading and wind reading (both of which are good things without a doubt). If you can be competitive with this calibre, you are well on your way.
 
I cannot comment on the article directly as I do not shoot 2223 in competition. But I can comment as someone in who has worked in the butts. If shooting in competition it is more difficult for the marker to hear and see the shot, IMe when it breaks, and to find the hole on a 223 than a 3o8. It is not fair but it is the reality. And at best it will cause delays. At worse points. Can it do it? Yes. Can people do well with it? Yes, I've witnessed it from brilliant people committed to their craft and cause. Are they at an inherent disadvantage compared to their heavy 308 competitors? Ime = yes.has my 308 been beaten by 223? Yes and often. Have they had to work harder for it? I suspect so. Would they have kicked my ass more thoroughly if they shot an equal or heavier 308? Yes.
 
223 isn't poor at long range. It's far from the best choice, but to call it poor is wrong. I'd make the claim it's the best compromise for a centerfire cartridge for learning/training, including long range.
 
For a guy that was weened from breast milk to .308, and never shot anything but, for centre fire, the only advantage I see to the .223 is in the cost of the components. To invoke recoil... The inherent precision needed to reload for the caliber compared to .308 is much greater, and I feel that you should practice the way you compete.
 
x2 with riflef i have been their and done that,built a 223 to shoot the 90 and 80 for fclass,just wa not for me to much time and efford lost in the reloading and testing,went back to the 308 meat and potatoes and am going to stay their for fclass its a no brainer to get them to work and they do the job well with the right driver.

i remeber leo damour told me ones us the kiss methed Keep It Simple Stupid

it seams to be working so far
 
Gunsmoke said:
Not sure what the purpose of this thread is..... really.
Click to expand...

The purpose of the OP was to be a ####, he has a different opinion to another member and this is his way of backing his point.

paperslayer said:
In a forum where the more posts you have decides your credibility, it is worth stepping back and taking in some of the technical research done by pros.
Click to expand...
 
GSoD said:
I cannot comment on the article directly as I do not shoot 2223 in competition. But I can comment as someone in who has worked in the butts. If shooting in competition it is more difficult for the marker to hear and see the shot, IMe when it breaks, and to find the hole on a 223 than a 3o8. It is not fair but it is the reality. And at best it will cause delays. At worse points. Can it do it? Yes. Can people do well with it? Yes, I've witnessed it from brilliant people committed to their craft and cause. Are they at an inherent disadvantage compared to their heavy 308 competitors? Ime = yes.has my 308 been beaten by 223? Yes and often. Have they had to work harder for it? I suspect so. Would they have kicked my ass more thoroughly if they shot an equal or heavier 308? Yes.
Click to expand...

And I know I have lost points cause the 8mm spindle wasn't used in scoring. Way too many spotter over the line but lower score. It is what it is.

To me F class is a wind reading game, having shot the 223/90 for the last 2 seasons, I know it has made me far more aware of the air and the wonky things it does to bullets. I never saw this when I was shooting my 6.5 in Open. Certainly, the larger 7mm rifles I shot were so forgiving even in wind at 1000m. A 30 magnum, well see my comments above.

My reloading is now at the top of what I feel can be accomplished outside of a clean room lab. ALL my rifles have benefitted. Groups have shrunk but more importantly, VERTICAL is at an all time low.

If shooters can't have access to very long ranges and/or want to up their wind reading game, I can't think of a better training tool then a 223 and LIGHT bullets.

Take a 69gr MK which is a dumb easy bullet to get to work in pretty much any rifle. Now shoot these at 500yds on a reduced sized target - bring your A game for wind reading. Awesome training. Far more ranges and places that go to 500yds then 1000yds so the chances of practising improves.

The cost of F class is on an ever climbing trajectory and the new gen heavies are not helping. To be competitive now, expect an open barrel to be "practise" accurate around 1000rds, a 308 around 2000rds. That is a lot of cost to keep working with these in practise as well as comps.

Take a 223 or 6BR, use a lower BC bullet and reduced distances and learn how to drive. You dont need to load to the 11th degree and barrels will last an entire season of practise. Now that cost per bang has dropped by as much as 75% AND you can argue, you get BETTER practise.

So when someone wants to live in a world of absolutes, they pretty much miss the bigger picture.

These are just tools. Understand what they do and how they work THEN ply them to your best benefit.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
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