Why are Canadian's too good to patch when they shoot?

Nationals

DVC1911 said:
Profit - what profit? That not why we put on events. If we wanted to make money we would do something else. You should that a lot of "voluntee" man hours dedicated to puting on a match.

DVC
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Yes, that's right. Out in BC, no-one makes a profit. I suppose you bought the poppers and props in POCO out of your own money, right? I'll be sparing with the patches(sorry, brown masking tape: you guys don't believe in patches) next time I shoot there because you buy them yourself. So, why is the match fee for the 2007 Nationals so high? All the paying shooters are doing all the work. Do we at least get lunch?? No profit. To borrow a good line from storm:
Um, ya, whatever!
 
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Ipsik said:
Whats wrong with Alberta starting the trend in 2008?
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The 2008 Nationals are in Lethbridge; about 2 1/2 hours driving time from where I am. So it's not up to me.....you'll have to convince the MD.
 
I have shot an international match outside the country and I have to agree; it is good to have the same ROs running the same stage for the whole match, for reasons Mike and Alex have both stated. I also agree that a shooter should not be able to RO half his squad through the COF before shooting it himself having gleaned every nuance of it from his competition.

No concerns about inconsistant start positions and stage descriptions and no angst about having to RO make for the best possible performance for me, and I would have no problem with paying more for it.

Patching is mindless and it doesn't bug me at all, particularly with a big squad.

Perhaps the MD for the 2008s should come up with an offer for dedicated ROs and CROs and float it out here and in the Dili.

I would consider shooting a pre-match and ROing, if the offer was good enough.

Anyone else?
 
nationals

Dragoon said:
The 2008 Nationals are in Lethbridge; about 2 1/2 hours driving time from where I am. So it's not up to me.....you'll have to convince the MD.
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I think I heard somewhere that FrankK will be the MD for Lethbridge. Is this true? If it is, then there's HOPE!!!
 
AlexS said:
Yes, that's right. Out in BC, no-one makes a profit. I suppose you bought the poppers and props in POCO out of your own money, right? I'll be sparing with the patches(sorry, brown masking tape: you guys don't believe in patches) next time I shoot there because you buy them yourself. So, why is the match fee for the 2007 Nationals so high? All the paying shooters are doing all the work. Do we at least get lunch?? No profit. To borrow a good line from storm:
Um, ya, whatever!
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I'm a little unclear about how poppers and props for a match and tape for a match can be considered "profit" from a match.

Another way to look at is as if the volunteers who run the match are essentially purchasing those non-consumables such as poppers and props for the club, instead of demanding a wage.

If the workers at the match were making a fair wage for their labor to work the thing, match fees would be a hell of a lot higher.
 
Bartledan said:
I'm a little unclear about how poppers and props for a match and tape for a match can be considered "profit" from a match.

Another way to look at is as if the volunteers who run the match are essentially purchasing those non-consumables such as poppers and props for the club, instead of demanding a wage.

If the workers at the match were making a fair wage for their labor to work the thing, match fees would be a hell of a lot higher.
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the match fee would be around 275.00USD but at least I wouldn't have to work ( would expect to patch though).

what about the forced volunteers where is their share of the pot??... this is Canada and being a socialist society we must all have equal share.

BTW you just supported Alex's arguement. Any props and disposibles the club keeps that were purchased with match fees are profit. Yeah so are we being compensated for working?? or are we buying our compensation (free gift).

I don't understand why we are buying a shooter's gift with our match fees. have a prize table that everyone can visit instead or you could reduce the match fee by the 50 75 100.
 
maxpig said:
the match fee would be around 275.00USD but at least I wouldn't have to work ( would expect to patch though).
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I assume that is the match fee for the US nationals, or something, and they are run along these lines. OK.

what about the forced volunteers where is their share of the pot??... this is Canada and being a socialist society we must all have equal share.
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I see how political economy comes into this... no, wait, I don't. Off Topic!

BTW you just supported Alex's arguement. Any props and disposibles the club keeps that were purchased with match fees are profit. Yeah so are we being compensated for working?? or are we buying our compensation (free gift).
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Disposables (I think you mean consumables) are by their very nature consumed. Hopefully, my point is sufficiently well made on that one. As for non-consumable capital investments... Do you expect to shoot for free? What of value costs nothing? The answer is nothing. Maybe political economy does come into this, just not in the way you originally intended.

Also, I believe (know for a fact) that Burke Mountain owns a lot of props and poppers. Do you expect to use those for free? Why? Surely they will need more for a big match like the nationals.

More to the point, can any club in Canada put on a quality Nationals without making capital investments? The answer is No. Or more specifically: No, so stop #####ing about it.

Who should get to keep these items, once the match is over? Considering that the club has been shut down for what, 2 months, prior to the nats, I think the general membership of that club is *entitled* to a little compensation. The only compensation they get is the leftover props, when you get right down to it.

I don't understand why we are buying a shooter's gift with our match fees. have a prize table that everyone can visit instead or you could reduce the match fee by the 50 75 100.
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Personally, I don't want a shooters gift. I don't wear t-shirts, and I already own a patch gun.

Further, I want no part of a prize table. I do not wish to pay to participate. I do not buy lotto tickets, why would I wish to be forced to buy lotto tickets if I want to shoot the Nats?

My point is that when a lot of people talk about "profit" and "dedicated CROs", and that jazz, nobody ever talks about paying these guys for their labor. Until you are paying people for their labor, you are going to suffer from inconsistency in officiating.

You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
 
maxpig said:
BTW you just supported Alex's arguement. Any props and disposibles the club keeps that were purchased with match fees are profit.
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...and what is the problem with that?

Clubs are using some of the match fees to improve the facility...good for them (and good for us now that I think about it)
 
AlexS said:
I think I heard somewhere that FrankK will be the MD for Lethbridge. Is this true? If it is, then there's HOPE!!!
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Nope, Walter Hornby.

BTW, I'm not sure if you guys in Ontario have heard, but Frank K is in the hospital. He was sharpening a knife with a Dremel tool in his reloading room and the sparks ignited fumes from the solvent he uses to clean his guns. (No powder ignited) The explosion buckled a weight bearing wall in his house. Frank suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns to his upper body. Thankfully, he was wearing eye protection. I visited him in the hospital a week ago Friday (the accident happened January 11th) and he had just come out of surgery for skin grafting. I hope to visit him again this week.
 
this issue with RO's learning how to shoot a stage they are working is just silly IMHO. It's no different than watching people shoot on your day off, or observing another stage from the one you are on. Again the top shooters seldom will pick up anything new from this "advantage" yes it does happen, but probably not enough to affect the scores much. Dedicated CRO's, are I think, necessary, but RO's? not so much. so long as the CRO does his job, and doesn't just surf the lawnchair, we shouldn't have much to worry about.
 
Dragoon said:
Nope, Walter Hornby.

BTW, I'm not sure if you guys in Ontario have heard, but Frank K is in the hospital. He was sharpening a knife with a Dremel tool in his reloading room and the sparks ignited fumes from the solvent he uses to clean his guns. (No powder ignited) The explosion buckled a weight bearing wall in his house. Frank suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns to his upper body. Thankfully, he was wearing eye protection. I visited him in the hospital a week ago Friday (the accident happened January 11th) and he had just come out of surgery for skin grafting. I hope to visit him again this week.
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Holy #### balls! Hope he gets well soon!

This is why it says "ensure adequate ventilation" on the side of those cans, hey?
 
Quigley said:
...and what is the problem with that?

Clubs are using some of the match fees to improve the facility...good for them (and good for us now that I think about it)
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no problem at all and they should otherwise where's the motivation.... but call it what it is...
 
Dragoon said:
Nope, Walter Hornby.

BTW, I'm not sure if you guys in Ontario have heard, but Frank K is in the hospital. He was sharpening a knife with a Dremel tool in his reloading room and the sparks ignited fumes from the solvent he uses to clean his guns. (No powder ignited) The explosion buckled a weight bearing wall in his house. Frank suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns to his upper body. Thankfully, he was wearing eye protection. I visited him in the hospital a week ago Friday (the accident happened January 11th) and he had just come out of surgery for skin grafting. I hope to visit him again this week.
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Dragoon..please say Hi to Frank for me and let him know that he is in my prayers..wish him a speedy recovery.

Josko
 
Nationals

Slavex said:
this issue with RO's learning how to shoot a stage they are working is just silly IMHO. It's no different than watching people shoot on your day off, or observing another stage from the one you are on. Again the top shooters seldom will pick up anything new from this "advantage" yes it does happen, but probably not enough to affect the scores much. Dedicated CRO's, are I think, necessary, but RO's? not so much. so long as the CRO does his job, and doesn't just surf the lawnchair, we shouldn't have much to worry about.
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How do you think it's silly??
Let's examine just one example out of the many we see every year. Do you remember the briefcase stage at the Frederickton 2005? Of course you do. Nobody was allowed to touch the briefcase until you were the next shooter. Remember? Nobody. But wait, nobody except the people working that stage.
Who was the worker RO on that stage for a day? I think you'll find the person who worked it and played with the prop for a day or two was the same person who won the stage. The only one he won. Coincidence??? Maybe. But the optics are still there as well as the facts: the person who got to play with the prop won the stage. It just looks bad, even if it's a fluke. (doubt it)
This is the kind of nonsense we shouldn't expect to see at a National Match.
 
nationals

Dragoon said:
Nope, Walter Hornby.

BTW, I'm not sure if you guys in Ontario have heard, but Frank K is in the hospital. He was sharpening a knife with a Dremel tool in his reloading room and the sparks ignited fumes from the solvent he uses to clean his guns. (No powder ignited) The explosion buckled a weight bearing wall in his house. Frank suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns to his upper body. Thankfully, he was wearing eye protection. I visited him in the hospital a week ago Friday (the accident happened January 11th) and he had just come out of surgery for skin grafting. I hope to visit him again this week.
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HolyCow!
Please give him my best wishes when you see him again. Also please tell him not to sharpen any more knives in his loading room!:(
 
AlexS said:
How do you think it's silly??
Let's examine just one example out of the many we see every year. Do you remember the briefcase stage at the Frederickton 2005? Of course you do. Nobody was allowed to touch the briefcase until you were the next shooter. Remember? Nobody. But wait, nobody except the people working that stage.
Who was the worker RO on that stage for a day? I think you'll find the person who worked it and played with the prop for a day or two was the same person who won the stage. The only one he won. Coincidence??? Maybe. But the optics are still there as well as the facts: the person who got to play with the prop won the stage. It just looks bad, even if it's a fluke. (doubt it)
This is the kind of nonsense we shouldn't expect to see at a National Match.
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and those who watched how he did it learned from watching him, so they had a benefit too. unless you want everyone to shoot with blinders on and can't see anyone else do it, we run the risk of learning by watching others. True a person working a stage might have more of a benefit, but since that would be true on all the stages doesn't it sort of equal out?
 
Slavex,

Then there is IPSC luck, or lack there of. How many times have you worked a stage, all day long, had your strategy perfected and then everything that could go wrong does.

The issue Alex brought is a relevent one that could have been resolved by having an extra brief case and letting the competitors try it.

DVC
 
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