Why are there still no stainless shotguns?

Stainless steel's corrosion resistance doesn't really impress me, Melonite type finishes on carbon steel beat it to heck in that department besides being MUCH more wear and scratch resistant.
 
manbearpig said:
yes i am aware there are finishes/platings, and the new generation of plastic-encased guns, but its not even close to the same durability of a solid stainless gun.

how hard can it be to mill an 870 receiver and barrel out of stainless? is there something im missing? perhaps the properties of stainless make it unsuitable for a shotgun barrel? what gives? anyone care to speculate?
:shotgun:
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People have a misconception about Stainless. It is actually less ductile than steel therefore it will not withstand pressures like steel. It will also wear faster due to this. It isnt as strong as steel either. Depending of course on what we are comparing. BTW put a magnet on real stainless....doesnt stick does it. Nickel and chrome baby!
 
davemccarthy707 said:
People have a misconception about Stainless. It is actually less ductile than steel therefore it will not withstand pressures like steel. It will also wear faster due to this. It isnt as strong as steel either. Depending of course on what we are comparing. BTW put a magnet on real stainless....doesnt stick does it. Nickel and chrome baby!
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All of the above depends on what grade of stainless you are talking about. Some stainless steels are tremendously tough and ductile, some work harden extremely well and wear forever because of it. Not all stainless steels are non-magnetic. Ductility has nothing to do with containing internal pressure, that is strictly a strength issue.

Mark
 
davemccarthy707 said:
People have a misconception about Stainless. It is actually less ductile than steel therefore it will not withstand pressures like steel. It will also wear faster due to this. It isnt as strong as steel either. Depending of course on what we are comparing. BTW put a magnet on real stainless....doesnt stick does it. Nickel and chrome baby!
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Your thinking tensile strength. Also, not all stainless has nickel. There are so many different kinds of stainless, and steel for that matter. One for almost every situation. Saying steel is simply stronger than stainless is incorrect. Its like saying oranges are harder than apples. Depends which one you pick.
 
Okay, enough argument on stainless now.
Let's go for TITANIUM. Yeah. Oops, nobody use titanium for barrel.

The Ruger stainless steel shotgun, on the spec said that
400 forged steel, so it will be magnetic.

I am wondering if they used 440C (bearing material for harsh environment).
 
mmattockx said:
All of the above depends on what grade of stainless you are talking about. Some stainless steels are tremendously tough and ductile, some work harden extremely well and wear forever because of it. Not all stainless steels are non-magnetic. Ductility has nothing to do with containing internal pressure, that is strictly a strength issue.

Mark
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You better look up your definition of ductility. Then think about what happens when you pull the trigger.
 
deets said:
Your thinking tensile strength. Also, not all stainless has nickel. There are so many different kinds of stainless, and steel for that matter. One for almost every situation. Saying steel is simply stronger than stainless is incorrect. Its like saying oranges are harder than apples. Depends which one you pick.
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Let me simply state it. Steel used for a blued gun is stronger than stainless steel used for the same gun. It is more ductile allowing it to handle more pressure.
 
this type of conflicting sh*t doesnt help either:

from Lilja barrels:
Q. Can stainless steel barrels be safely fired in sub zero temperatures?

Yes they certainly can be. There is a myth going around that stainless steel alloys used in rifle barrels loose their strength in sub zero temperatures. There is no truth to that. We have made many thousands of barrels that have been fired safely in below zero temperatures as have all of the other custom barrel makers as well as the major arms manufacturers. This is an urban legend that should be chilled
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from Krieger barrels:
Stainless Steel....
It is inadvisable to use stainless steel in very cold temperatures; i.e. below 0 Degrees, as stainless loses fatigue resistance in very cold weather. Additionally, due to safety concerns, 416 stainless should not be used in lighter contours than we have listed.
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The bore life of stainless barrels depends alot on the particular
alloy and the hardness, the method by which the barrel is made, and the
presence of machining additives. In general the use of selium or
sulphur would weigh against use of stainless in high stressed
environments due to poor notching characteristics. as typical alloys
like 416R while offering mirror finish machining, have failed when used
in M14 rifle barrels and other applications where exterior machining or
welding (as for the operating rod guide on an M14) was done. This
would also suggest against use of stainless in hot belted magnums such
as the .300 Win. or 7 mm Mag. in light sporter barrels because the
presence of sulphide stringers, which could act as stress risers, could
affect ultimate strength. Most button rifled stainless barrel are only
about 20-24 Rockwell C, whereas the lower sulphur grades which are
hammer forged are usually about .006 max. sulphur - nuclear grade
material, and are much stronger. When I was at Ruger we used a type
415 stainless for .44 Mag. Redhawk barrels and cylinders, of Rc 35
Min., and this was incredibly strong stuff. I don't know anybody else
except Steyr and HK who make barrels out of steel of this cleanliness.
Ed Harris
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*cough* Ruger *cough*

Several arms companies have recently offered hunting rifles with a
stainless steel barrel. Here's some cautionary information about
stainless steel barrels.

When the temperature goes down, stainless steel has less fatigue
resistance. Its physical properties drop off with temperature.
There have been instances of stainless barrels in hunting rifles
bursting when the ambient temperature is around zero degrees, or
less.

Some custom barrel makers specifically caution against using their
stainless barrels in hunting rifles. One (Krieger) doesn't even
make sporting/hunting barrels in stainless steel. In a conversation
with B.J. Obermeyer some years ago, he told me that some of his
stainless barrels were installed in hunting rifles and used in
Alaska winter-time hunts. Some of these barrels burst when fired.

Chrome-moly (i.e., type 4140 or 4150) barrels maintain their fatigue
resistance very well in really cold temperatures. Stainless steel
(i.e, type 416R), typically used for rifle barrels, is the really
cold-weather culprit.

I'm wondering if anyone who has bought a new rifle with a stainless
steel barrel has noticed any cautions in printed material supplied
with the rifle. Even more so, I'm wondering if rifle makers even
concern themselves with this issue.
Bart Bobbit
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Contrary to genral impressions Stainless steel that is used in the
firearms is not more difficult but is much more machineable than
chromoly. The s/s used in barrel steel is stainless screw stock 416R made
to run on auto screw machines at high speed. The steel used in s/s
actions is 1704, a tougher steel that take more tool pressure but
machines nicely. Stainless doesn't have the tensile strength that a
chromoly like 4340 does. Due to the softness of barrel s/s which is 27
to 29 Rockwell C it will not last as long as 4140 and while it is
believed to withstand heat erosion better I have not found that to be
true. As a summary due the better machinability, s/s barrels can be
made with closer dimensions and surface finishes. It will produce more
accurate barrels. The sole benefit of fluted barrels is that to some
people it looks neat. If you are lucky a fluted barrel will shoot as
well as or nearly as well as an unfluted barrel. And the gunsmith needs
the money.
Gale McMillan
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Each basic type of barrel-quality steel has advantages, depending on the application. Chrome-moly
barrels develop a fine-line erosion pattern in the throat, which I compare to fine gravel in a
stream. With bare bullets, this can cause greater variations in velocity, due to drag exerted on
the bullet in the throat region. This situation may result in an increase in the vertical dispersion
of the shots that is particularly noticeable at longer ranges. The testing I have performed in my
target rifles leads me to believe that molybdenum disulfide coating on bullets, when properly
applied, has a mitigating effect in this regard. (Each of the several chrome-moly match rifle barrels
in .260 Remington that I have used in conjunction with moly-coated bullets has exceeded 6000
rounds of accurate life.) Also, chrome-moly having 40 to 50 points of carbon may harden in the
throat area from use. This can cause damage to your chamber reamer if you try to set such a
barrel back. On the other hand, chrome-moly takes more abuse from peening or abrasion, and this
is a big advantage where field use is rough. It also tends to be stronger in cold-weather
environments, such as might be encountered while hunting in Alaska, where the temperature is
often below zero.

Barrel-quality stainless steel is usually identified as type 416R or 416RS, and it has approximately
half the sulfur content of common, warehouse-grade 416. Stainless steel barrels will not harden in
the throat area, which provides a big advantage for target shooters who plan to set their barrels
back when the throats wear. The erosion pattern of stainless steel looks like a dried-up mud
puddle, having large flats with fracture lines. This reduces the drag on the bullet, so there is less
tendency for vertical stringing at long ranges. Sometimes, after a lot of use, a large piece may pop
out from the throat of a stainless steel barrel, causing it to suddenly lose accuracy. Stainless steel
will also scratch or peen easier than chrome-moly barrel steel of comparable hardness. In
applications involving military weapons, this sort of material behavior would present a real
problem, which is why chrome-moly is generally used. Stainless steel also has less ductility than
chrome-moly, particularly when the ambient temperature approaches zero. Thus, a featherweight
stainless steel barrel would not be the best choice for hunting in Alaska. Also, contrary to some
people's notions, stainless steel is not hard to machine; it's actually easier than chrome-moly.

The type of steel used has a significant impact on the price of a barrel, since stainless steel costs
approximately four times more than chrome-moly. In addition to the cost differential associated
with the material in the barrel itself and with the material removed during the manufacturing
process, there are additional costs due to drops resulting from having to purchase bars of certain
lengths, which may not allow for full, end-to-end usage. Furthermore, the relatively high cost of
stainless steel (and the tremendous difficulty of purchasing any barrel-quality steel in smaller
quantities) forces the small manufacturer to tie up substantial amounts of money in inventory.
Nevertheless, the greater cost of stainless steel does not automatically imply that it is a better
material than chrome-moly for a given application.
B.J. Obermeyer
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And ruger's alaskan rifle is only available in stainless. :confused:

Anyway that stainless ruger O/U is pretty neat, wonder how many they made?
 
davemccarthy707 said:
Let me simply state it. Steel used for a blued gun is stronger than stainless steel used for the same gun. It is more ductile allowing it to handle more pressure.
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I think your right, but I for one would love to purchase some sort of small stainless shotgun for my truck but would only be interested if a proper stainless would be used. I know alot more about knives than guns, and some of the custom stainless' used for blades can get above Rc 60. This leads me to believe COST is the most significant factor in why they dont make many shotguns from stainless.

Thanks MANBEAR for all the good info. It seems a few companies are using some different kinds of stainless that might be better suited for this application. I really liked the finish of that ruger bolt action you posted earlier. Ive always thought if I bought stainless id go synthetic, but it looks pretty ###y with the wood. I wonder if they used the same 415 stainless as the .44 mag you gave example of?
 
deets said:
I wonder if they used the same 415 stainless as the .44 mag you gave example of?
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the guy said its what they used for their hammer forgings. AFAIK all Ruger barrels are hammer forged, so i hope so. doubt well ever know for sure.
and yeah the target grey is awesome.. i wish more companies would do something like that. even the 'stonewashed' stainless of the Mini-14s was an improvement over most stainless finishes.

i have no idea what Ruger is using but it seems pretty hard -- i ruined two cobalt bits drilling a Ruger receiver.
 
I have used stainless guns for many Alberta and Saskatchewan hunts in temperatures to -30 with no problems at all.In fact,of all of the people that I know that use stainless guns in the cold,none have ever had a problem.
 
i have machined stainless . if you heat the material up it goes hard and you have created a hardened steel that is that much tougher to work with. the shop produced three types of feed pumps and the stainless pumps were twice the money that the regular pumps were.i have to admit that a stainless shotgun would be nice and i see no reason why they could not be produced at a price .
 
TDC said:
With a little care a blued shotgun will last as long as a stainless model. Add to that the rather low price point on shotguns and the desire to offer a stainless model that is price competitive is almost nil. Aside from bird hunting and clays a shotgun is a dying breed.

TDC
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Lol, you talk about them like they are minor things
 
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