So, I've now owned quite a fair number of antique cartridge rifles, and it seems that every one of them shot so high you would need to use a toenail hold to hit a man in the chest. In particular, I am speaking of Sniders (especially Cadet carbines), Martinis, trapdoors, etc. I understand that these are battle rifles, and as such were expected to be used at far ranges, and that most original sights only come down to about 200 yards/meters. This being said, they still seem to hit terribly high, like, unusably high without modifications. What puzzles me more is that I keep reading that the black powder of the past was stronger than what we get today, which should mean our replica ammo would hit lower. Thoughts? I am currently contemplating this conundrum because I just finished making a new sight blade for my Werder by hand (daggone Bavarian gunschmidt could have at least used the same angle on both sides of the dovetail!), and am in the process of replacing sights on my Snider sporting rifle.
Why do antique rifles shoot so high???
- Thread starter gabrielguitars
- Start date
i would presume the sights are made for a black powder load, and you are shooting modern rounds though it ? modern smokeless loads are at the high end so thats going to raise your POI, if you want the sights to shoot accurate, load your own. start at a recommended load and increase or decrease depending on POI.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Back in the day these were everyday tools of self defence and war and it only mattered that the shooter could strike a human opponent standing up at some distance.
Rather than a bullseye target at 25 or 50 yards.
my two bits only
Rather than a bullseye target at 25 or 50 yards.
my two bits only
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No, Aries, I'm talking about proper black powder loads. I've only ever loaded my own, with both black and nitro-for-black. Both shoot really high, even reduced loads. I think you'd have to squib load to get a Snider cadet to hit POA at 100.
I've a treasured copy of Elmer Keith's ' Sixguns'
IIRC the logic is thus; on a lighter charged weapon, the recoil impulse will come into play before the bullet exits the barrel (hence the muzzle lifts before the bullet exits). And if you subscribe to this logic, it makes sense. Who among us antique aficionado's loads our precious antique up to max loadings and shoots it regularly? Not I, to much time and care into my antiques to 'Ride them hard and put'em away wet'
Thus, I load them lighter so as to not abuse them...and they do shoot high.
IIRC the logic is thus; on a lighter charged weapon, the recoil impulse will come into play before the bullet exits the barrel (hence the muzzle lifts before the bullet exits). And if you subscribe to this logic, it makes sense. Who among us antique aficionado's loads our precious antique up to max loadings and shoots it regularly? Not I, to much time and care into my antiques to 'Ride them hard and put'em away wet'
Thus, I load them lighter so as to not abuse them...and they do shoot high.
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Most of the firearms mentioned are MILITARY rifles. What we have to consider is the MILITARY thinking of the period, not TARGET or MODERN mentality. Rifles were sighted for a distance (usually 200 - 300 yards/meters) and were designed to hit a VERTICAL target, that is, a Man. Soldiers were taught to aim at the Belt Buckle of the opposing Soldier as ranges were generally closer when shooting commenced. The older Black Powder cartridges were much slower in velocity and trajectory of the fired bullet was not as flat as more modern cartridges. Precision shooting was not practiced as much as Volley fire (the Lee Enfield had Volley Sights up until mid-WWI.) Therefore, a higher sighted rifle produced more hits on an enemy.
As pointed out, bullet weight is also a consideration, and today's trend is to use lighter bullets. An interesting aspect of this is that contrary to what a person might expect, a heavier bullet can shoot HIGHER at 100 yards than a lighter one. This has to do with the vibration of the barrel as it has the bullet travel down it. The barrel vibrates when fired, and a heavier bullet with it's slower velocity, takes longer to travel the length of the bore, and can exit the muzzle while the barrel is in an upward vibration cycle, thus hitting higher. (If you want to experiment a bit with this, try a 215 grain bullet in a .303 Short Magazine Lee Enfield versus a 174 grain Mark VII load.)
What it boils down to is that some people expect TODAY's more adjustable sights standards to be the same for 100 or more year old firearms. We see this in many posts in the Milsurps Forum about rifles shooting high, and how can one buy a higher front sight. Installing a higher front sight will get you into the bullseye at 100 yards, but then all range graduations marked on your rear military open sight are now well off the extended ranges.
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Most of the firearms mentioned are MILITARY rifles. What we have to consider is the MILITARY thinking of the period, not TARGET or MODERN mentality. Rifles were sighted for a distance (usually 200 - 300 yards/meters) and were designed to hit a VERTICAL target, that is, a Man. Soldiers were taught to aim at the Belt Buckle of the opposing Soldier as ranges were generally closer when shooting commenced. The older Black Powder cartridges were much slower in velocity and trajectory of the fired bullet was not as flat as more modern cartridges. Precision shooting was not practiced as much as Volley fire (the Lee Enfield had Volley Sights up until mid-WWI.) Therefore, a higher sighted rifle produced more hits on an enemy.
As pointed out, bullet weight is also a consideration, and today's trend is to use lighter bullets. An interesting aspect of this is that contrary to what a person might expect, a heavier bullet can shoot HIGHER at 100 yards than a lighter one. This has to do with the vibration of the barrel as it has the bullet travel down it. The barrel vibrates when fired, and a heavier bullet with it's slower velocity, takes longer to travel the length of the bore, and can exit the muzzle while the barrel is in an upward vibration cycle, thus hitting higher. (If you want to experiment a bit with this, try a 215 grain bullet in a .303 Short Magazine Lee Enfield versus a 174 grain Mark VII load.)
What it boils down to is that some people expect TODAY's more adjustable sights standards to be the same for 100 or more year old firearms. We see this in many posts in the Milsurps Forum about rifles shooting high, and how can one buy a higher front sight. Installing a higher front sight will get you into the bullseye at 100 yards, but then all range graduations marked on your rear military open sight are now well off the extended ranges.
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A rifled musket's lowest adjustment was usually 100yds. Mine shoots high also, if you shoot it a lot you get to know where to hold. Even modern weapons will shoot high and soldiers were trained to aim lower at short ranges. At least they were 40+ years ago.
Yeah. The air was thicker(funny) and people were shorter, not taller.
The standard U.S. military bullet weight for 45-70 was 405 grains. .577-450 about 480 grains.
Sighting stuff in the BP rifle era of the late 19th century had to do with military tactics. Most generals were still thinking in terms of Napoleonic battles with rifles that could shoot 200 yards or siege fighting. The troopies didn't get much, if any, formal training.
The Bavarian gunschmidt who gave you the grief very likely cut that dove tail by hand.
You're going to have to file your sight blade for elevation. Maybe have to make another as front sights are adjusted in the opposite direction you want the group to go. You making your own sight blade is kind of impressive. Isn't something a lot of guys would attempt. Nice one.
The standard U.S. military bullet weight for 45-70 was 405 grains. .577-450 about 480 grains.
Sighting stuff in the BP rifle era of the late 19th century had to do with military tactics. Most generals were still thinking in terms of Napoleonic battles with rifles that could shoot 200 yards or siege fighting. The troopies didn't get much, if any, formal training.
The Bavarian gunschmidt who gave you the grief very likely cut that dove tail by hand.
You're going to have to file your sight blade for elevation. Maybe have to make another as front sights are adjusted in the opposite direction you want the group to go. You making your own sight blade is kind of impressive. Isn't something a lot of guys would attempt. Nice one.
tactical870
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Buckhorn, Ontario
I dunno. I find my Sniders all shoot pretty good..... I've never had an antique that was that far off.....
I could be corrected, but I thought GOEX advertising is the opposite...the formula (ratio's) have remained unchanged since 1802? Prior to that I would think consistencies in powder would vary. (not to say prior to 1802 the powder was less than. Just less consistent.)
