Why do I want a 16 gauge?

Currently 5 16 bores in the cabinet. 3 12 bores. 1 20 bore. Myself and Cory handload steel 7/8 oz loads to 1560 fps. I knocked down an 11 pound honker at 55 yards a year or so ago with these loads. All the 16's are polychoked, remchoked or open enough for steel except my good old Baikal double. I handload bismuth for it. My love goes back to the first 16 bore I ever saw, a model 12 pump in the window of our local sports store. Ron at the shop let me handle it and I was hooked. That was 40 years ago and I am still smitten with the 16.

Darryl
 
madtrapper143 said:
Currently 5 16 bores in the cabinet. 3 12 bores. 1 20 bore. Myself and Cory handload steel 7/8 oz loads to 1560 fps. I knocked down an 11 pound honker at 55 yards a year or so ago with these loads. All the 16's are polychoked, remchoked or open enough for steel except my good old Baikal double. I handload bismuth for it. My love goes back to the first 16 bore I ever saw, a model 12 pump in the window of our local sports store. Ron at the shop let me handle it and I was hooked. That was 40 years ago and I am still smitten with the 16.

Darryl
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Cool. What wads are you using for the steel Darryl. Humm I think I may know where maybe one of your other 16ga's sits today a nice 1100:)
 
Not to incite any "heat" in this discussion, but some feelings stated here are absolutely incorrect:

- I have never had a problem finding ammo. (Winchester, Remington, Federal, Kent, Rio & Fiochi all catalogue 16's)

- I have never had a problem finding components. (Same powder, primer & shot, clay buster wads anywhere you buy wads - many others you can order and a regular supply of hulls at range & CGN EE)

- I have never had a problem finding reloading gear (MEC, PW, Lee all currently produce @ same price as other gauges).
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Where are you shopping? What is absolutely incorrect is leaving the impression that 16 gauge ammo and components are as available, widely distributed and of equal variety as 12 or 20 gauge. Sure you can special order your components through Hummasons and BPI but 16 gauge is more often a special order than it is available on the shelves when measured against the 12 or 20.

A shooter who already has a 12 and 20 acquires no special advantage buying a 16. There is nothing inherently wrong with the 16 gauge but nothing particularly special about it either.
 
madtrapper143 said:
Currently 5 16 bores in the cabinet. 3 12 bores. 1 20 bore. Myself and Cory handload steel 7/8 oz loads to 1560 fps. I knocked down an 11 pound honker at 55 yards a year or so ago with these loads. All the 16's are polychoked, remchoked or open enough for steel except my good old Baikal double. I handload bismuth for it. My love goes back to the first 16 bore I ever saw, a model 12 pump in the window of our local sports store. Ron at the shop let me handle it and I was hooked. That was 40 years ago and I am still smitten with the 16.

Darryl
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I've always preferred 16 ga to any other gauge. My passion is upland game birds and the 16 is the perfect tool for the job (assume I'm talking about true scaled receivers unless otherwise noted). All else being equal, a 16 ga will hit just as hard as a 12 ga, weigh less to carry, and pattern as well or better. For me, 16 ga guns are strictly for hunting. I purchased a couple of boxes of 16 ga shells every year until recently, when I realised that I already have what amounts to a lifetime supply.

I'm not in the habit of counting guns or gauges/calibers, but Darryl's post got me wondering. The verdict: I have 6 - 16 ga guns in the cabinet.

IMO, 16 ga doubles with double triggers are as good as it gets in the uplands. I wouldn't be in such a hurry to hunt migratory with a 16, but that's because I don't reload. As a target gun, 16 ga leaves much to be desired (both due to ammunition availability and because competition guns and parts for them are almost non-existent in North America).
 
Claybuster said:
Where are you shopping?
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I'm not "shopping". When I need ammo &/or components for any gauge or caliber I purchase them from a reputable dealer (read gun shop). I may order some but I don't believe I've ever "special ordered" anything.


Claybuster said:
What is absolutely incorrect is leaving the impression that 16 gauge ammo and components are as available, widely distributed and of equal variety as 12 or 20 gauge.
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Clay buster, I disagree wholeheartedly. I said they are available, and they are, period, that is a fact not an "impression". The only reason such a variety of 12 & 20 gauge components are available is because some individuals insist on trying to load their respective guns to replicate a 16 gauge. A 12 shines with payloads of 1 1/8 & greater. A 20 shines with payloads of 3/4 - 7/8. You can make both of them work in between, but why go to all the effort if a 16 already shines there?


Claybuster said:
A shooter who already has a 12 and 20 acquires no special advantage buying a 16. There is nothing inherently wrong with the 16 gauge but nothing particularly special about it either.
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Again I disagree, will a shooter with a 223 Rem and a 375 H&H "acquire no special advantage buying" something in between? Maybe a 30-06? I suggest there is an advantage, and that 95% of the gun nuts here do have an "in between" rifle.

I'm a bit different in my approach, I use a 16 (several to choose from) for damn near everything. But I will use a 20 with light payload for a dedicated woodcock, snipe or quail hunt, just as I will use a 12 with heavy pay load for late season geese.

Likewise, I use 7x57 Mauser for most hunting but I do have a 220 swift for varmints and a 7mm Imperial mag for bull moose ( should I ever get a tag) or Elk in the West.

Setting aside the novelty, nostalgia & quirkiness, I believe there is a "right" tool for every job.

M
 
Well I am not good for knowing where factory ammo is since I reload all my 16ga stuff but do know crappy tire at least here stocks federal no. 6 , with 4 boxes on the shelf as we speak.
Wads so what I have to order a batch of claybusters from hummanson that is where I get all my other wads other than 10ga and steel.No big deal
I want rem sp-16 or downrange dr-16 one call to my favorite US shop and 5000 are at the door in two weeks.
I was running low on original win AA's about 2 years ago so started to see what I could find, yes it took me maybe a week to find 8000 vintage ones sitting with a Ontario dealer and yes I took them all. That will do me and my Bud a few years since I shoot more 28ga now. I buy the components as I see them also extra stuff doesn't go bad, To me as long as one is willing to keep some stock and order in bulk I don't see the issue especially if willing to reload. To be honest try finding wads for the old AA 410 now that is becomming a challenge. I have No issues with 16ga that I am aware of other than I think the herd over 40 years may have grown too large but I don't count , but pretty sure 5 or 6 wingmasters alone..;)
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3 macs I joint order all of my steel 16 components from Balizor ( hope I spelled that right) in western Canada. Cory is my partner in this 16 gauge madness. I use the VP 80 all metal wad from BPI. I also have a nice little stash of the WAA-16 wads. (probably the best ever made, I wish I could find 1000 or two of some CF WW 16 hulls, the one's marked Upland would be perfect) With all the reload talk aside EVERY Canadian Tire within 500 miles of me (that makes about 5) stocks Federal's good 1 oz field load in 16 bore, usually #6 @ 11.99 a box. Not cheap, but a quality load ( with very re loadable hull) in 16 bore. In today's world of the net, Cory and I have ordered flats of Fiocchi 16 gauge ammo (very good loads) at 99.00 a case delivered from Canada Ammo. A potential 16 gauge shooter should not fall into the " expensive and hard to find ammo" argument. It simply isn't true. BTW I do miss that 1100 it was an early blonde without the machined cut to the rear of the ejection port.....

Darryl
 
madtrapper143 said:
3 macs I joint order all of my steel 16 components from Balizor ( hope I spelled that right) in western Canada. Cory is my partner in this 16 gauge madness. I use the VP 80 all metal wad from BPI. I also have a nice little stash of the WAA-16 wads. (probably the best ever made, I wish I could find 1000 or two of some CF WW 16 hulls, the one's marked Upland would be perfect) With all the reload talk aside EVERY Canadian Tire within 500 miles of me (that makes about 5) stocks Federal's good 1 oz field load in 16 bore, usually #6 @ 11.99 a box. Not cheap, but a quality load ( with very re loadable hull) in 16 bore. In today's world of the net, Cory and I have ordered flats of Fiocchi 16 gauge ammo (very good loads) at 99.00 a case delivered from Canada Ammo. A potential 16 gauge shooter should not fall into the " expensive and hard to find ammo" argument. It simply isn't true. BTW I do miss that 1100 it was an early blonde without the machined cut to the rear of the ejection port.....

Darryl
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Thanks Darryl. I buy from him from time to time mostly buckshot I cannot get in canada. I was hoping SAM 1 started to make the 16ga for steel as many said they were. Seems they went with the 28ga and skipped the 16 which makes no sense to me.
On the AA hulls man that is a tall order. I have never seen 1000 for sale or in any stash and have 40 years of gathering.
I was smart enough maybe 20 years ago when the word got out that winchester was stopping production to order in two flats(500 rounds) of pheasant, got one and the other was dove and quail but still compression formed.
I treat them like gold and are for hunting reloads only. Seen them sell once fired in the US for $1.50 a hull. Also like the activs which are also tough to find today but come up from time to time.
If I was the op I would try out a 16ga from a friend etc and I think it would sell itself.
take care
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I have about 200 handloaded WW CF's with #6 bismuth. The only problem is I find myself spending more time looking in the cattails for the hulls instead of looking for the duck... As for the weight issue with 16's built on 12 ga frames I have a comprimise, I own not one but two Remington 870 Express synthetics in 16 bore. One sports a 28" barrel with some Tru Lock screw ins and the other sports a 23" barrel Rem choke from the youth version both are around 7 to 7.5 pounds. I have my 37 Ithaca if I want a lightweight. The most used 16 I have is a alloy framed Mossberg 500 in 16 with a 24" Poly Choked barrel. (real Poly not a C lect) it only weighs 7 pound right on the nose. All but the 37 are built on the 12 frame. Light ,fast handling 16's are the ticket but the later made 12 ga frame versions have their uses... NOTE: the VP 80 is an excellent steel shot wad.

Darryl
 
Mark Dube said:
I'm not "shopping". When I need ammo &/or components for any gauge or caliber I purchase them from a reputable dealer (read gun shop). I may order some but I don't believe I've ever "special ordered" anything.
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I'll leave this matter to the OP. He's can visit local gunshops and see for himself the availablity of 16 gauge compared to the others. If he's happy then I won't argue but he should check out local availability before he buys the gun.

Clay buster, I disagree wholeheartedly. I said they are available, and they are, period, that is a fact not an "impression". The only reason such a variety of 12 & 20 gauge components are available is because some individuals insist on trying to load their respective guns to replicate a 16 gauge. A 12 shines with payloads of 1 1/8 & greater. A 20 shines with payloads of 3/4 - 7/8. You can make both of them work in between, but why go to all the effort if a 16 already shines there?
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I agree with the previous poster who said "an ounce is an ounce." Nothing special happens in the 16 gauge when an ounce of shot is fired that doesn't also happen in the 20 gauge or the 12 and I've patterned all three.

Again I disagree, will a shooter with a 223 Rem and a 375 H&H "acquire no special advantage buying" something in between? Maybe a 30-06? I suggest there is an advantage, and that 95% of the gun nuts here do have an "in between" rifle.
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Your comparison is at distant ends of the spectrum and is akin to comparing a 28 gauge and a 3.5" 12 gauge. I believe a more accurate rifle comparison would be a shooter with a .270 and a .30-06 who asks about a .280 Remington. It is a wonderful cartridge but doesn't do anything better than the other two.

I'm a bit different in my approach, I use a 16 (several to choose from) for damn near everything. But I will use a 20 with light payload for a dedicated woodcock, snipe or quail hunt, just as I will use a 12 with heavy pay load for late season geese.

Likewise, I use 7x57 Mauser for most hunting but I do have a 220 swift for varmints and a 7mm Imperial mag for bull moose ( should I ever get a tag) or Elk in the West.

Setting aside the novelty, nostalgia & quirkiness, I believe there is a "right" tool for every job.

M
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And I use a 12 or a 20 with 24gm and 1 ounce loads for small birds switching to a heavy 12 for waterfowl. I remain unconvinced they are not equally the "right" tool for the job simply because of a few thou of bore diameter either way.

The 16 gauge isn't a deal breaker for me and I would certainly not turn down a nice gun just because it was a 16. But to pursue the gauge just for its own sake doesn't make practical sense when a shooter already has a 12 and a 20, gauges for which ammo and components are far more widely available and can do exactly what the 16 gauge does although perhaps not with the same panache.
 
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If the OP already has a 12 and a 20 and wants to try a 16, why not? It would be a boring world if we all did the same thing.

I bought a beautiful 1980's wingmaster 16 ga years ago and used it lots, still cracked more clay with it than I could with a 12. Ended up buying a 12 just for changeable chokes and a shorter barrel but I don't think I will part with my 16.
 
Been doing some more research. One concern that popped up is that the gun i'm considering ( Citori lightning ) has invector pro choke tubes and i'm a little concerned i wont be able to find much selection as Browning don't even list the 16 on the website. I like the versatility of playing around with different tubes and most of my hunting would be best served with a SK/SK setup which don't come with the gun.
The ammo availability is a non issue as i live close enough to Ellwood Epps, Basspro, Sail, and Gagnons that supply is no problem. little worried about only having the IC-Mod-Full tubes that come with it. Maybe i can source some aftermarket ones?
 
Can get Briley anytime and most Browning dealers carry 16 chokes. I'm buying a few extras with the shotgun. I'm going to buy one tonight :)
 
No, 1 oz of shot from a 20 ga has a longer shot string and is more likely to have fliers than the same amount from a 16. A 12 ga throws an ounce of shot with an even shorter string and fewer fliers than a 16, it is just a basic function of ballistics and bore size. The most horrible monstrosity that was ever foisted on the unsophisticated shotgun shooter is the 20 ga. 3"lead shell. Patterns are poor. Pressures high, shot string extremely long. A truly horrible load ballistically. Steel is a different matter. But in a properly proportioned double, balance, handling, and ballistics do favour the 16 in the uplands.
For uplnand birds, I often shoot one of two 12s or two 20 ga. Guns. But my go to guns are 16ga because they work so well!
 
linderhof said:
I own both 12 and 20 gauge guns already, why do I have this desire to try a 16? The only thing holding me back is that the one I'm looking at is heavier (1/2 lb) than the 20 gauge version in the same gun (Citori lightning). It would be used on grouse, woodcock and preserve pheasants over a pointing dog. Anybody want to talk me in or out of this dilemma?
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Well collect double's , and I have at least one in 410, 20, 12, 10, and of course My sweet 16. This gun is amazing, never misses, shots faster, and kills well, all is the best of them all... Except shell cost, but hey......
 
Longwalker said:
No, 1 oz of shot from a 20 ga has a longer shot string and is more likely to have fliers than the same amount from a 16. A 12 ga throws an ounce of shot with an even shorter string and fewer fliers than a 16, it is just a basic function of ballistics and bore size. The most horrible monstrosity that was ever foisted on the unsophisticated shotgun shooter is the 20 ga. 3"lead shell. Patterns are poor. Pressures high, shot string extremely long. A truly horrible load ballistically. Steel is a different matter. But in a properly proportioned double, balance, handling, and ballistics do favour the 16 in the uplands.
For uplnand birds, I often shoot one of two 12s or two 20 ga. Guns. But my go to guns are 16ga because they work so well!
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Some real old school stuff here and not really as accurate today as it was back then
Ok in theory and fact the three-inch 20 gauge is indeed in the catagory of a 3 1/2" 12 ga and will pattern poorly.
It was gospel the longer the shot column in relation to bore diameter, the less efficient the performance for several reasons. First, the longer column places more pellets in contact with the barrel wall, which scrapes them out of round and turns them into useless flyers. The longer and heavier the shot charge, the more it resists thrust from the powder gases, in part because of increased friction and in part simply because a heavier object is harder to move. This increases chamber pressure and also means more crushed pellets at the bottom of the column: these string out behind the main swarm, rapidly shedding velocity and contributing nothing to pattern efficiency.

However today we have over bore barrels, longer forcing cones, nickle plated shot, better wads and powders, buffered loads etc etc add a upland situation and yardages with no. 6 and no. 7 1/2 shot and flyers are a non issue.
I am not saying that flyers in shot string does not exists. It does, but it is much less than it was 30 years ago but more importantly it simply does not matter enough to have a practical effect when comparing 1oz 16ga loads to 12ga in a upland hunt. You are either on the bird or miss him with both. Just one man's opinion
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linderhof said:
Been doing some more research. One concern that popped up is that the gun i'm considering ( Citori lightning ) has invector pro choke tubes and i'm a little concerned i wont be able to find much selection as Browning don't even list the 16 on the website. I like the versatility of playing around with different tubes and most of my hunting would be best served with a SK/SK setup which don't come with the gun.
The ammo availability is a non issue as i live close enough to Ellwood Epps, Basspro, Sail, and Gagnons that supply is no problem. little worried about only having the IC-Mod-Full tubes that come with it. Maybe i can source some aftermarket ones?
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I would be worried about choke tubes also. My browning 16ga's take standard invectors which I can get from browning special order or through briley. I have never heard of an invector pro??. I know some of the latest 16ga o/u had invector plus which I am not sure who sells them. Briley doesn't list them in 16ga, nor does browning and seems quite a few looking for a source on the 16ga site.Some saying trulock will fit.
Good luck
 
I have used a 16 SxS since I was a teen, it is my most treasured firearm, I still hunt both ducks and geese with it. Quite often someone I haven't hunted with before comes along and teases me about my baby goose gun. After the hunt they are either very quiet or asking many questions. 1 1/4 oz bismuth drops em a lot farther than their 12 steel or hevi-shot, and I have used this old gun so much it's easier than pointing my finger. There is nothing the 16 can't do for waterfowl that a 12 will, I prove it yearly.
 
The pattern board settles most arguments re: performance of 12 ga vs. 20 ga. In testing, I find no appreciable difference in patterns between 1 1/16 oz. 12 ga. loads from Citori IC choked barrel and 1 oz. loads from AyA 20 ga open barrel with .007 constriction, and no significant difference in fliers around the core pattern. With either gun and open chokes a bird is in deep trouble at 25 yards and at risk of being only wounded at 40 yards, because some significant holes appear in the patterns by that distance. Similarly the Mod barrel on the Citori or the AyA will lay the birds low out at 40 yards, if I get the bird centred.
Arguments in support of 16 ga shotguns would best be made on handling, proportion and weight of the gun.
In my mind 12 and 20 ga cover the range of payloads and applications for sporting shotguns. BTW, I also have no use for the 3 inch 20 ga. shell.
The 12 ga. is primarily my waterfowl gun, and the much lighter 20 ga. double gets the long outings for Sharptails and Huns. If the 16 ga. makes your day, go to it. I just don't think that it is required with modern shotshell performance.
 
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