Why do manufacturers make push feed dangerous game rifles?

[ninepointer]

This is a cool thread ! I now know that CRF is the only way to go, just in case I ever find myself upside down in a trench with a German soldier on top of me!!! Thanks for clearing that up boys !

Ninepointer

 

[Wooly ESS]

I used to shoot skeet with an 870 pump. It was rare that I did not either short shuck, or double shuck on doubles at least once in a 100 rounds, and clays can hardly be considered dangerous game.

I don't think we should underestimate the errors we can make under pressure. There are many stories of civil war soldiers found with powder and balls loaded right up to the muzzle, because in the heat of battle they forgot to put a cap on the nipple. In other cases, they fired their round without taking the ramrod out of the barrel and fired it downrange along with the minie ball.

Personally, I cannot guarantee that I would not do something utterly inept under the pressure of hunting dangerous game. Therefore, I want my equipment to compensate as much as possible for error on my part. For me, that means CRF.

Having said that, Gregor Woods, in his book, Rifles for Africa, notes that the only rifle he saw fail in action was a CRF. In spite of that, he still recommended CRF for DG rifles.

What the hell do I know? I've never hunted dangerous game in Africa or anywhere else.

 

[1899]

A high quality CRF that would be suitable for dangerous game will be close to the same cost as a double rifle from Chapuis, Searcy or Merkel. The initial question "Why do manufacturers make push feed dangerous game rifles?" could probably be answered by looking at who buys/uses them. I bet most folks on this site who have, or have had any big bore rifle have used it on moose, deer, elk, black bear or paper targets. The fact is that we need some less expensive big bores to satisfy our curiosity. How else could the average Joe afford to live out some fantasy of stopping a charging Cape Buffalo? In reality, these rifles will be enough even for the fellow that will make a once in a lifetime trip to Africa. The professional hunter on the other hand, will likely stick with a modified M98 or something a bit higher up on the "cost" ladder, like a double or a magnum mauser.
If it were me, and I'd be looking for a dangerous game rifle on MY budget...it would be a .458 WM or .416 Taylor on a FN Mauser, or maybe a VZ-24.

 

[bladerogers]

Can someone explain the difference to me? I noticed in a recent search for a new deer rifle, the winchesters specify push feed OR controlled round feed...but I do not understand the difference. Please explain someone. And no, I am not a Newb, I just don't follow this specifically (well, of course I will find other things that I don't understand, then just ask).

 

[Gatehouse]

I just went to my shop to try an experiment. I loaded two dummy rounds into a Savage 110 which is a PF. I chambered one round then, without turning the bolt handle down, I drew back the bolt and tried to chamber another. Of course, the second wouldn't chamber because there was already a round in the chamber. The result is a bad jam.

Then I tried the same thing with a Mauser 98. The first round went into the chamber. Without turning the bolt handle down I drew back the bolt to try to chamber another round. The first round came out of the chamber and ejected. The second round chambered properly. No jam.

.

This, in essence, is the whole debate. That is it in a nutshell, well put.

*I* understood exaclty what you were saying the first time.

It's not about the CRF rifle being any better than a PF, it's about adding one more margin for operator error.

IIRC correctly a Alaskan grizzly guide was killed a coupel of years ago, when he double fed his PF Sako rifle in the heat of the moment.

 

[geologist]

It boils down to this - shi* happens when you're scared or under stress.

Why not eliminate 1 serious variable from the danger equation? ie the dreaded double feed.

If you have no possibility of facing something big with claws, teeth and attitude then a push feed makes a lot of sense.

I just don't understand .375 H&H push feed rifles?

 

[martinbns]

I think it's much ado about nothing.

 

[BCWILL]

IIRC correctly a Alaskan grizzly guide was killed a coupel of years ago, when he double fed his PF Sako rifle in the heat of the moment.

I think if it's the same Guide who was Mauled after his Sako jammed on the second shot(the bear was previously wounded by his client ) the guide apparently hit it at the charge in the bush when he went looking for it...then jammed the rifle and was mauled......he lived though, but lost a few fingers and has some nice scars to show off to the ladies

IMHO ! Niether CRF or PF is a True DG Rifle ...........The Reality is that Nothing which feeds ammo from a magazine, tube or ??? into the chamber is Faultless
Get yourself a Double.........They are without question the only repeating Rifle that absolutely will not Jam
Any Really Serious African DG Hunter uses one, Sullivan comes to mind

 

[machinistbutler]

I actually did double stroke the bolt on my browning and jammed it in front of a bear,My friend did the same with his sako 375 on a wounded bear.Not sure why I did it ,bolt would not go ahead,looked and one was in the chamber and the other one was jammed up behind it.I do shoot alot and this has never happened at the range or on a deer hunt.With things that can bite back funny things can happen.Reducing the chance of pilot error is one positive aspect of a good crf rifle.Probably never happen to me again but I have experienced it first hand.

 

[eltorro]

a good military 7.62 with FMJs is the way to go.

Ohhhhh - I'll get a lot of blame for this, but you guys stretched this CRF - PF - Double rifle debate from the plains of the Dark Continent to the dark ages of men- the WWI + II.

We eliminate the auto option as for an adequate caliber the aim is rather unatainable after 40 yards - wich is by the way he distance @ wich the so discussed dangerous game is most likely shot at - but it is out because is mostly illegal to use for hunting.

Largely semiauto variations of the same military rifles are available for hunters.

Do they jam?
Like any mechanical device they are susceptible to malfunctions.
Some designs more than other.

However, for the sake of this subject, we'll consider the most reliable ones.
FN-FAL, Dragunov/M76/PSL , M1/M1A being the ons coming into my mind.

I'm not going to argue about the energy difference between the classic 375 H&H and the 308, 7.62x54, 8mm M , and the 30-06 rounds mentioned.

But some guys praised the 7x57 and 7x64 for taking the big five.
I don't see any difference in potential.

Jams? - no more than usual. BTW I NEVER had to clear a jam in my issued boomstick . It worked flawlessly. I trusted my life in it and there wasn't a pair of eyes looking back meanfully, but many.

Would I choose these over a nice M98 Magnum? Not likely! But not related in any way to the way they chamber a round or eject brass.

Like Gatehouse said...... Use what you feel like and don't panic. You know why you went there !!!!!

my 2c

 

[Cujo03]

crf last round onto ground?

people talk of not closing bolt and then jamming another shell on top with PF could they not cycle the last shell onto the ground in a panic when they cycle bolt on a CRF

 

[senior]

IIRC correctly a Alaskan grizzly guide was killed a coupel of years ago, when he double fed his PF Sako rifle in the heat of the moment.

The only incident I had was with CRF, some-how I got one in the chamber & one on the bolt!

Had to cycle all the shells out of the mag (because every time I ejected on it picked up another) & push like heel (older mauser) to get the extractor to slip over the one in the chamber.

Wouldn't want to try that with a Grizzly licking my nose


Use the gun your most comfortable with.................

 

[Boomer]

Not to hijack the thread.......but double rifles come to mind when going after dangerous big game.....why even bother with bolt actions

Cost aside, the double is a very specialized tool, and while a specialized tool can perform a number of tasks, it cannot perform tasks other than it's primary task, as well as a tool designed to perform in a more general role. Few clients go to Africa to hunt only one type of game, and by far the majority of clients book 7-10 day hunts and bring a single rifle. For this reason the double is without a peer as the professional's rifle, but the turnbolt magazine rifle is without a peer as the clients.

So if the bolt gun is the best choice, the question is then to choose between a push feed or controlled round feed rifle. The Weatherby Mk-V Dangerous Game Rifle is perhaps the best feeding rifle available due to it's straight line magazine, and it's a push feed. That being said, it's hard to ignore the points made by Mauser98. When it comes to choosing a rifle for dangerous game either system should work considering the cost of the rifles. A properly built rifle suitable for this type of work should cost about $4000.00 - without glass. If you have not paid this much for your big boomer, chances are you've missed some important details. A M-700 out of the Remington Custom Shop should work, but it wouldn't be my first choice.

 

[Sasquatch]

I agree Boomer a Rem. Model 700 would not be my first choice.........in fact it would be one of my last choices.

 

[Claven2]

FWIW, when Col. John Henry Patterson was hunting the man-eater lions made famous in the film "Ghost in the Darkness" (true story), he was almost killed when his double-rifle failed to discharge.

He immediately switched back the the commercial Lee Metford that he eventually killed the lions with.

So the double-rifle is not the be-all end-all of DGR rifles. Some of the great (including Bell and his thousands of elephants) met with great success prefering the .303 or 7x57 bolt action.

 

[Claven2]

Cost aside, the double is a very specialized tool, and while a specialized tool can perform a number of tasks, it cannot perform tasks other than it's primary task, as well as a tool designed to perform in a more general role. Few clients go to Africa to hunt only one type of game, and by far the majority of clients book 7-10 day hunts and bring a single rifle. For this reason the double is without a peer as the professional's rifle, but the turnbolt magazine rifle is without a peer as the clients.

So if the bolt gun is the best choice, the question is then to choose between a push feed or controlled round feed rifle. The Weatherby Mk-V Dangerous Game Rifle is perhaps the best feeding rifle available due to it's straight line magazine, and it's a push feed. That being said, it's hard to ignore the points made by Mauser98. When it comes to choosing a rifle for dangerous game either system should work considering the cost of the rifles. A properly built rifle suitable for this type of work should cost about $4000.00 - without glass. If you have not paid this much for your big boomer, chances are you've missed some important details. A M-700 out of the Remington Custom Shop should work, but it wouldn't be my first choice.

I think if I were right handed, my choice would be a P14 customized to a .375 H&H or .450 Lott, etc. A proper built one can run 4K easily. since I'm a lefty, I'm left to commercial actions a Mauser style would likely be my first choice given this constraint, but I wouldn't feel naked with my custom lefty Remmy 700 .300 H&H either...

 

[264magnum]

Guys, I think very few of us can even comment on dangerous game rifles with a valid opinion because of our lack of experience!! That said, we have to go with the overwhelming choice of PHs and others who hunt dangerous game on a regular basis. These are people who can comment on the debate between CRF and PF rifles. The majority of them use and recommend CRF rifles. That's good enough for me. Mauser 98's shop experiment is why these professionals choose CRF. Under heavy duress a person is less likely to jam a CRF rifle. Battlefield and elephant charges make people's pulse race and adrenaline rush and sometimes they do things they wouldn't normally do. The CRF rifle guards against some of the trouble a person can run into. Just my thoughts.

 

[rgv]

When it comes to choosing a rifle for dangerous game either system should work considering the cost of the rifles. A properly built rifle suitable for this type of work should cost about $4000.00 - without glass. If you have not paid this much for your big boomer, chances are you've missed some important details.

say you started with a $1200 Model 70 Express, Brno 602/550, or a Whitworth 375, how would you spend the rest of the $4k ?

thanks

 

[AP]

Every time I look at the leaf springs driving the hammers on the typical "Ye Merry Olde England Fyne Bespoke Double Gunne" .. I get the "willy's".

No doubt they are made from the very best OCS (old Chevy spring) steel but the suspense of their impending fracture would make staring down a large angry animal very trying ... mad dogs and Englishmen I suppose....stick to a bolt gun unless you are after grouse or pheasant...IMHO

 

[Sasquatch]

Well with a new 'cheap' English double being about $45,000 or so, I would hope they ain't old Chevy springs.

I have done a fair amount of blasting with a couple of doubles in .450-400, a .470 Nitro, a .500 and a .465............they all worked like a fine watch. I'd take one in a heart beat, if I could afford it.

I don't think there is anything better than a double in a close range charge situation. A cool hand with a good bolt-gun that they know so well it is an extension of them comes a close second.

Much of it has to do with how familiar you are with your weapon. A guy that has the bluing worn of the barrels of his double from packing it and using it for years, is going to be good with it. A guy that has used a bolt-action for his whole life and then buys a double to use for an elephant hunt is better off with a bolt-action.

The odds are tipped in your favor regardless ..........cause if you are on a dangerous game hunt, you will have a PH backing you up and he doesn't want his client getting chewed on. Bad for business.