Why do the "Hi-End" guns break at matches?

[Popurhedoff]

First: This is not a 1911 bashing thread, please read on.

I was at an IPSC match recently and befor the match started I was told I should get a "Real" gun... in jest of course. I laughed it off as usual but then the funniest thing happened... On the very first stage his Hi-end Custom wizz-bang 1911 sputtered, stopped and ended up being a manual repeater... then another broke and with an AD during the mag change (yes finger was off of the trigger) The pistol was removed from competition. Then another Hi -End broke... the poor booger was trying to beat it open... and it was removed from competition... then 4 others of these hi-priced guns in our squad had many FTF's.

As I gloated with glee, I had also noted that the guns that were basicly left alone seemed to work great... yes even a few 1911's. In the years I have been shooting IPSC I have noticed a high number of FTF's with the 1911's for various reasons. I know the 1911 is a great SA design so why do they fail so much? is the 1911 the Harley Davidson for pistols? or what?

 

[maurice]

I know exactly what you mean! Seen it happen numerous times. However, when they work, ("when") ,they work well.

Why does that saying," get a real gun", jinx the hell out of people ??

 

[doc25]

I've noticed this as well. I saw two guys in a shoot off open division both had malfunctions (they were shooting simultaneously) I think I could have beaten them with my revolver. But as stated above when they work it almost sounds like they are firing full auto! Maybe there is a maintenance problem firearm owners don't know how to keep these race guns in top shape where a guy with a production pistol basically unmodified is intended to be reliable.

 

[joe-nwt]

You ever see an engine blow in a F1 or Top Fuel car? Pretty spectacular sometimes.

Not quite the same as a Neon, is it?

Hey, you started it.......

 

[Popurhedoff]

You ever see an engine blow in a F1 or Top Fuel car? Pretty spectacular sometimes.

Not quite the same as a Neon, is it?

Hey, you started it.......

There is a big difference between an engine blowing up and not being able to start This is not a comparision between the 1911 and any other pisol, nor is is a 1911 bashing thread.

But I am trying to figure out why so many do fail... it could just be that the people owning them do not fully understand how they work? or it could be that they think that owning one makes them expert's in the maintenace, customizing and tuning of such beast?

Its a fair question and one I am sure lots would like to fully understand.

 

[Quigley]

hhmmm....I don't remember the last time my gun failed at a match...

If you don't take care of your equipment...it doesn'tr matter how much or how little you paid...it won;t work.

The problem is lack of maintenance...has nothing to do with cost

 

[hungrybeagle]

Biggest problem I've seen is people trying to go cheap on their parts. If something's not working right on my gun, I replace the parts and get them tuned properly.

I do bring spare parts with me...Lots of spare parts. Like basically a spare gun minus the barrel, slide and frame. Not because I plan on using them (in fact, I never have had to). I bring my spare parts because if I'm 5000km from home, and something DOES break, well, I've just paid $700 for airfare, maybe $200 for match fee and $500 in hotels and car rentals. I'd rather not take the chance that I'm going to be sight-seeing and shopping for the rest of the trip.

Second biggest problem I see is people that don't take care of their guns. They swap out parts, do their own gunsmithing to try and save a few bucks or install new parts they picked up to try and gain a miniscule advantage. Granted, I may not clean my gun on a regular basis, but it's always detailed stripped and cleaned before a match, and it's wiped down, oiled and cleaned during a match. Maybe it takes half an hour, but well worth the time, especially at a big match.

Third problem is ammunition. People use crap brass trying to save a few pennies per shot. Reloads should be checked carefully for any irregularities. People used to laugh at me for drawing little circles around my primers with felt pen. It is, however, part of my routine for inspecting my primers and marking my brass. I mark my brass for 2 reasons: 1 - I only use brass fired from my gun. Other people have sloppier barrels, and when I resize their brass, I may get "rings" around the base or other problems that arise from old/weak brass. 2 - If I have to pick it off the ground at a match and use it later, I want to use my handloads, not one that looks like mine and may not function in my gun. I also use a case gauge. It's undersize compared to my barrel, but if the rounds are even a little bit tight in the gauge, then they don't go into the match ammo container.

Some people don't care to take the time and effort it takes to get a gun functioning properly. However, when I'm at a match, I want to devote all of my attention on me and what I need to do to shoot well at a match. The last thing I want to worry about is whether my equipment is going to work or not.

 

[joe-nwt]

There is a big difference between an engine blowing up and not being able to start This is not a comparision between the 1911 and any other pisol, nor is is a 1911 bashing thread.

But I am trying to figure out why so many do fail... it could just be that the people owning them do not fully understand how they work? or it could be that they think that owning one makes them expert's in the maintenace, customizing and tuning of such beast?

Its a fair question and one I am sure lots would like to fully understand.

Ok, Pops, I was just funnin' ya.

As I gloated with glee,

but this envoked my response, ya know....

In addition to Hungrybeagle's observations, some *hi-end* 1911's are definately more finicky than others. When they work well in capable hands, they work really well. When they don't work well in capable hands, I wonder if perhaps it would be more noticable to observers than say a lower end 1911.

Nobody would bat an eye, if a stock norinco stopped working at a match.

it could just be that the people owning them do not fully understand how they work? or it could be that they think that owning one makes them expert's in the maintenace, customizing and tuning of such beast?

Well this is kind of bashing don't you think? No one has to be a mechanical expert to know that a Dodge 318ci engine is usually indestrucable and run for many 100s of 1000's of km but would you consider it high-end? Or the owners experts? Once again, a 76 chev 1/2ton on a hook is no where near as noticable as a 2005 viper.

Not saying a high end 1911 is the viper of the range, just using it as an example. Even high -end 1911's break, maybe low-enders are watching for them.

 

[Levi Garrett]

Les Bear or Wilson , the names that I can not afford.
I don't think these fail much, but you never know.
Frank

 

[Moe]

The fact is they are a 100 yr old design. I would not buy a model t and expect it to last or run as reliable as todays cars. They have a very loyal following and those people WILL NOT LISTEN when they are confronted about their 1911 being un reliable. "It only jams a couple times a match" , " The best guys run them" , and "if they were no good why does every one make them" are some of the often heard quotes I hear at the range. A couple jams a day are a couple more than I can stand or accept. I don't care who runs them. If the big dogs can use a highly tunned 1911 that don't jam and they sink $$$$$$ into it as well as practice so much that they can see the problems and have their personal gunsmith on it like white on rice for more big $$$$$$ (sponcership) then sure... I guess??? Every one makes them because people will buy them. Hey they make smokes but that don't make it a good thing.

In short The 1911 is nice collectors piece. Thats all.

Moe

PS: let the flames begin

 

[sonofpaleface]

"Show Horses Versus Race Horses".

As above from my BB 1991-2005 and NROI RO 1997-2005 perspectives "what we have here is a failure to procrastinate" in overconsumption of exotic firearms which have the inherent "show horses verus race horses" factor.
I learned this about 52 years ago at the Norwood Fair where they had two horse team stoneboat drawing contests. Simple "Power-Accuracy-Speed" contest really. You lined up with your team of horses pulling a stone boat..a flat bottom sled that the "range officers" loaded up with success loads of concrete blocks or hundred lb feed bags. Ever see horses pull more that their own weight and MORE?

Lots of competitors..the bragging and informal betting beforehand was something to see eh!

Some very overly proudly strutting around the ring beforehead (think IPSC Club House or IPSC Safety Table chat before the Level II or Level III Match) had silver adorned fancy harness, the driver wore a 1954 business suit with white shirt and tie and had thoroughbred horses whose horseflesh shone in the noonday sub; think of this PRO horsey group as the "SUPER DUPER Custom Race Gun Shop Class" (pay several $1000's of dollars); others showed up from working in the nearby bush wearing work clothes and with horses looking like they should have long ago gone to the glue factory. Think of this as either "total stock gun store bottom of the pistol case display" or "Battlefield Pickup Class"..or even Revolver Class where you elect to use a 1931 era S&W 38/44 HD with H&K speedloaders you carry in your pants pocket to shoot a Level II Match.

The results spoke volumes; the 'down in the dirt gluepot candidates" prevailed nine times out of ten pulling more weight flawlessly while the "show horses" failed miserably under STRESS.

WHY? Quite simply they were "tempermental". Unless you really KNEW how to drive them there was "high priced failure". Nearly 50 years later I can still remember the "hissy fit" that the very high priced show horse own had when a very non descript team from thebush beat his thoroughbreds. He whipped his horses creullly out of the ring; a teamster walked over to him and restrained him as it was not the horse's fault but the OWNER_OPERATOR.

Thats it here: Piano Players VERSUS Piano Owners or "Show Horses Versus Go Horses". The Thoroughbreds will win out IF they have a proper driver but just "having them" doesnt guarantee success.

I heard yesterday of how a $2800 pistol owner "had his very expensive gun fail" in a Level III Match...Hmmmmmm. Does the "reason matter"?

Also "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" comes to mind. IF you know how your horse or motorcycle or pistol works it will work well "almost all of the time"..IF you dont know all the intricacies well it can realy come up and bite your butt.

The Titanic was a very expensive "unsinkable ship". Did the ship sink itself or did operator error make it happen?

How can you really fault ANY equipment IF you cant operate it under any and all conditions? Hmm there comes that "keep it super simple" thang again which usually doesnt cost $1000's of dollars.

It would be great to do a statistical study on this versus anecdotal "evidence". However my overall impression from 14 years of IPSC competing and RO works is that the "just owning or bringing a "thoroughbred"(insert name of handfiled pistol from a single block of steel costing a few G's") doesnt guarantee Range RESULTS UNLESS You test and re-test for "Race Day Results".
Tiger Woods got his first tournament results simply because he OUTWORKED OTHERS or "Worked Smarter Versus Harder". He changed his "winning swing" recently.

To conclude, "A Poor Worker Blames His Equipment". RELIABILITY together with "repeatability"is a real world factor.

IF I could only have ONE pistol it would be a stock Colt Government 1911A1. Its my "Dodge 318 motor" or "Randall No.5 Knife" or Bill of Rights 1689 in "pistol terms".

 

[helmet head]

At matches, I've seen $3000 race guns malfunction left right and centre, And have seen $700 Glocks function flawlessly....

 

[maurice]

I like the look of the STI, and springfield, and KImber, very nice. I wonder out of all of these, which is the most reliable?> (not trying start another topic here)
If I get any extra cash coming my way, one of these is in my sights.

 

[heroofmyownlife]

I think the F1 analogy is a good one. The 1911 design is well proven as a reliable one, not only in 1911's but in High Powers, Tokarevs, and many other pistols using the same basic design.

However, it was designed as a military pistol, a workhorse. Every part you change on it to 'trick it out' for racing modifies the pistol in some way from its original design, which would affect the reliability of the pistol. Given the nature of the racing mods, I would think that most of those changes affect reliability in a negative way.

That being said, sonofpaleface makes a very compelling case for operator issues causing most of the problems.

 

[joe-nwt]

At matches, I've seen $3000 race guns malfunction left right and centre, And have seen $700 Glocks function flawlessly....

Yep, but what did the Overall Match winner have in his holster?

 

[Janeau]

Open gun are highly modified..so relevance to military or old age desing is irrelevant. Have seen and inspected a STI Grandmaster lately ??
Hungrybeagle identified some good points.
Most open gun are fired a lot more than most. Maintenance is the key.
9 mm major is the rage now and this round loaded to major will create all kind of problems. The right combination must be found. The ultimate 9 mm Major combination is still up for grab.
I do not think there is more failure in open gun than with any other division. Open gun are the formula one of IPSC. Many experiment to gain an advantage and this has it's up and down.
Most FTF is ammo related and bad reloading practice, closely followed by mag problems. How many check their round one by one with an ammo gage ??

The 1911 is still # 1 platform and no other come close to it's versatility. Durability and reliablity is proven. Has the gun most copied, not all are good quality, competition worthy gun.Before some of you get all upset, I owned and shooted some EAA Witness is 9x21 in Open division for years..

Glock, CZ, Beretta and most other use Mr. Browning 1920's desing lock up also.

 

[Slavex]

from my limited experience (includes working in a shop that builds custom 1911's) the biggest problem is the end user. Most IPSC'ers like to twiddle with their guns. Thinking that they know what they are doing, when in fact most don't. They'll try bending the springs this way and that, they'll mess around with sear engagements etc. and then act all surprised when the gun doesn't work properly. I can't count the number of times I'd put a gun back together at Joe's or he would, and it would work just fine in the test bay. But the day after the customer picked it up, it would be back and not working. And, oooh look at that, the springs are different or something. If you get a pro to work on your gun, leave it alone.

 

[bc_shooter]

At matches, I've seen $3000 race guns malfunction left right and centre, And have seen $700 Glocks function flawlessly....

Ok, so being the owner of both a $3000 STI and a "$700" Glock (BTW if you can find one for that price, buy it...) I can help you with your confusion.

My Glock has failed. Twice as a matter of fact. Seems to have a habit of eating up the trigger return spring. Hasn't happened in competition yet but I'm sure the day will come. Unless us course I put in a new one for every important shoot... I carry spares.

My STI has performed quite flawlessly to date. It will FTF if I don't keep it well lubricated, or when I don't chamber check. (I do cheap out on brass sometimes but only in practice.) Match time is a different story. I too keep spare parts. With the number of rounds I shoot in a year (approx. 20,000) something has to give. It's the nature of the game.

Hope that helps.

 

[Dragoon]

Yep, but what did the Overall Match winner have in his holster?

No such thing......Race guns compete in Open while box stock Glocks compete in Production.....it's the old Apples & Oranges......

 

[joe-nwt]

No such thing......Race guns compete in Open while box stock Glocks compete in Production.....it's the old Apples & Oranges......

I know, just razzin'. I stand behind my earlier statement that it's just more noticable, or maybe not as expected as much as *lower-end* guns.