Why do the "Hi-End" guns break at matches?

[Freedom Ventures]

I can proudly say that I have not had a jam in competition with my open guns (home built STI) , Standard Guns (STI Edge & STI Anniversary) or production guns (CZ-75) in the last 5 years (maybe more, I just can't remember back that far.)

In the last 5 years, I've seen Glocks, CZs, Berettas and 1911s jam at matches. I've seen crappy magazines all around, bad ammo - mods that didn't work, and people who didn't handle the gun so that it would work. 99% of the time, I can attribute it to the operator.

Two weeks ago, I had a jam with my CZ production gun in practice. (it was filthy - I haven't been treating it well) I didn't know what to do. I had to stop and stare at it. It had been so long since I encounterd a stoppage. I had to remember what to do.

I submit this spreadsheet for your perusal. This is the overall results from the world shoot - combining every division, using the individual hit factors each competitor got on each stage. It is Overall Results
Overall Results - World Shoot
Open - 100%, Standard - 79%, Production - 72%.

All high end guns in open and standard and the first production gun comes up at 101. Did that first 100 fail? Not a chance. How many were 1911s? at least 90% of em. Moe - that's pretty good for a collector's piece.

There's lots of good comments here about why we see 1911s fail and I agree with most.

It's been stated that people love to tinker with thier guns. That's so true, and the results more often than not is an unreliable gun. With the 1911s, there is a plethora of aftermarket parts that you can put in. Some parts are cheap crap that will fail, lots (the proper ones) require a gunsmith to fit it. Now keep in mind that production guns are specifically prohibited from changing a lot of thier parts. That leaves a miniscule (compared to the 1911) amount of parts that the evening gunplumber can mess up. Back before there was production, there were people modifying thier Glocks and CZs - and I even saw a few open glocks with comps - reliable? Nah. Definately on par with the home-modified 1911 open guns.

The maintenence issues hits hard on Open guns. They have the crap pounded out of them by design. Light slides, fast bullets, parts slamming. They run extremely fast and accurate (note the spreadsheet demonstrating the dominance of an open gun over standard and production) but they are semi-disposable. Toss in a home-gunplumber as noted in the above column and it's immediate disaster.

The reference to a race car blowing up is right on. Race cars are designed to run the exact # of laps +1 - to get that speed out of them; they're pushed to the edge of design. They're never going as far as the family toyota (or Glock), but they're going to blow the toyota off the road for a while.

People with highly tuned open guns must expect high maintence, (including parts) and must get very good at performing that maintence or hire a professional to do it. It's a fact of life.

We had 16 people at a black badge course down here over the weekend; there was a woman trying to shoot a Norinco Sig copy. She didn't have any luck hitting any tests on Saturday. Too heavy a trigger pull and too thick a gun. On Sunday, I gave here my old tricked out 9mm Colt MKIV. She started passing tests like crazy. For her, the 1911 was the ticket and since it's my gun - it was built right and maintained right. I think I made a 1911 convert there.

Oh yeah, and Maurice; it's the STI...

 

[Slavex]

hey I shot just under 51% of Eric. Pretty cool!

 

[maurice]

Oh yeah, and Maurice; it's the STI...

someday.............

 

[sinnsyk]

IPSC Gun Reliability Common Sense

My Tanfoglios rarely jam. When I pick a brand new one out of the box, I can go straight to the range and it'll feed & eject perfectly in my first practice with it. Some people believe that because I shoot for them, I get specially tuned or picked guns from the factory. This is not true, they are the same guns you would get. But it's not the same gun after I've gone through it with my gunsmith. The 38 super hybrid/comped gun - which is my main tool.. has rarely failed me in competition. They have, but it's been due to what I would consider common sense to a competitive ipsc shooter. If I break these rules I cannot expect my guns to work.

Yes, we see a lot of people having jams in competition. The #1 reason is that the shooter hasn't been spending a considerable time in practice with the exact same setup of gun and ammo. We like to tweak and try new things and the only way to come to a big competition is to use what you have proven to yourself - in practice - what works for the gun and what works for you. To be safe, you may want to consider spending gun modifications and ammo experimentation to be finished six months before the Nationals. Then spend the six months prior to the Nationals getting used to it. If you practice a couple of times a week and compete locally 2-4 a month you should know if your gun works.

Some IPSC Gun Reliability Common Sense..

(1) Ammo. Are you using new brass? Shooting old, ####ty brass at say, the Nationals doesn't save you much.. Brass is $100/1000, shoot 250 rounds and save $25..? Not worth it when it might cost you close to $1000 to go to the match. Primers; I use small rifle, but is your hammer spring / firing pin combo strong enough to set them off consistently. Must be checked, or use small pistol. Jacket Hollow Point bullets; Is your feedramp / magazines tuned correctly? If you switch from Round Nose to JHP and you haven't tested it, you might be in for a surprise. Powder; I use slow powders like Vectan SP2 / Vit N-105 / Accurate #9 which works really good with hybrid pistols. Switching between powders with different burning rates can have huge impacts on the guns functionality. The gun may have been just barely working with your old powder and been concealing an underlying problem. You may have a too light of a slide, too heavy of a slide and the same goes for the recoil spring. Make sure you gun works with different ammo, when you practice, give your buddy's ammo a try and see what happens. And if you switch between rimless and regular super, duh.. you may have to adjust your extractor. I recommend rimless.

(2) Magazines. I use the same in practice as in competition, but I check my springs. Unless you know that brand new springs work perfect right away, don't replace them the night before them match. Don't assume it's going to work because it's new. Don't stretch them, it weakens them over time. Reheat them or replace them in due time for your big competition.

(3) Parts do wear. Most common problems are feeding and ejecting. Check your extractor from time to time. Yes, so your gun worked flawlessly for the last 5,000 rounds, but hello.. that also put wear on the gun. A few weeks before the Nationals, maybe put a new extractor in it, tune it if necessary and practice with it to make sure. Put at least 1,000 rounds through it. A good practice would be to have a few fitted extractors on hand, ready to be put in at any time.

(4) Cleaning my gun? When my gun is set up right, I can shoot 2,000 rounds without cleaning it. The tighter the gunsmith built your gun, the more prone it'll be to dirt. Okay, so then you clean it every 300 rounds, or give it a rub at the end of the day. The guns should work without any lube, even though you WILL use it to protect your gun. Different lubes may affect your gun's reliability in various temperatures. But only guns who are built 'too perfect' should jam due to grease over oil.

(5) "I only had a couple of jams in my last 700 rounds in practice.." It should work all the time. I don't feel safe unless my gun has shot 2,000 rounds without giving me any indication of a problem. Hidden problems can be a low scope mount, giving the case a small opening to eject. If you have any marks on the bottom part of your slide in the ejection port it means the case first hits the slide, then goes straight up. You might have nicks on your mount too. Okay so you need to adjust the extractor to make the case come up higher.

(6) "Check out my HydraComp 3000RR design, this comp rocks!" Enough time has been spent by a lot of shooters to know that a 3-4 port compensator, possibly combined with a hybrid works. Experimenting with new, radical designs that ONLY 'I' could come up with probably isn't as great as you think. I've seen top shooters rave about one design one year, I've tried it and thought to myself "alright, he likes it so I'm not gonna break his balls, but.." and a few years later see him back on the old design. It's just so much we can do. Pick an experienced gunsmith, make sure to order a TOOL, not a showpiece and not 'the nest generation..." Put your money into ammo and practice. People win with old and non-fancy equipment. Don't compensate, get in the game..

..and finally..

(7) Sleep with your gun. Yes, know it better than your girlfriend. If she gets jealous, break up with her.. [Only extremely fanatical gunnutz have the discipline to do this... "Is it in you?" ]


Henning Wallgren
Tanfoglio/Armscor

 

[RobertMcC]

I broke another mag release today on my 1911 and it was a Colt mag release. Once again into the shop.

 

[Slavex]

strange I don't remember Henning sleeping with his gun in Ecuador? hmm must've missed something.
For those of you who don't know Henning is a top GM shooter out of the USA, and it's a great honor to have him here on the site. I got to watch him shoot our Canadian Nats this past year, and it's freakin amazing to see someone of that calibre shoot. So somehow I think his list above is probably a pretty good one, especially for those of you shooting tricked out guns.
As for me, I treat my competition gun like ####. Seldom clean it, only lube it now and then. yet it works, all the time. Probably because it's a combat gun at heart, and isn't super tight. I usually do a clean every 4-5000 rounds. That's a complete strip down to the most basic parts. Replace the springs and pins as needed, and then put it back together. I then make sure to put at least 1000 rounds through it before a match, just in case I screwed up putting it back together.
The only time I've had problems with any of my Beretta's was my 96 Elite II (.40 S&W) the stainless extractors were known to be a problem, and I went through 6 before I finally put a blued one in. No problems since that day.

 

[Moe]

" All high end guns in open and standard and the first production gun comes up at 101. Did that first 100 fail? Not a chance. How many were 1911s? at least 90% of em. Moe - that's pretty good for a collector's piece. "

If nothing else, if you do not know how,why... Just the fact that the most common gun that jams is a 1911 is fact. I cro'd range 5 at the nats for 4 days. in those 4 days I took count of the jams. There were 29. 22 from 1911's both standard and open class. So what ever the argument, ammo, mags, parts, maintenence, etc, etc. The fact is most jams were in 1911 guns. I only wish I had noted the type of jams.

I should not have walked away from the 1911... No, I should have ran.

Moe

 

[joe-nwt]

Yah, but who was operating them when they jammed?

 

[motoman]

so have i it seems the 1911 can be jam a matics at times

 

[Dansy]

My Edge or Trojan never jam, but I have to admit that my open STI gun does...a lot except that I believed that I may have found the cause...I shoot a complete match last week-end with-out a jam......after changing ammo....round nose versus the HAP I was using....even with the problems I encounter this year I still love the Open gun I just have to learn a lot outside of the shooting and I fully intend to do....!

 

[Quigley]

" There were 29. 22 from 1911's both standard and open class.

That's because the majority of guns are 1911's...

75% of the jams were from 1911's...Standard and Open made up about 80% of the total competitors and almost all the people in those two divisions used a 1911 (or a 2011)

It would seem to me that statistically the 1911's faired slightly better than the rest...

 

[Popurhedoff]

I shoot a complete match last week-end with-out a jam......after changing ammo....

Yes dan after that first stage your STI worked great. I think the Revolver shooter bested you on that first stage...even with his reload

When they are working, they work great. Open guns are fun to use/compete with...but I'll be dammed if they are easier to shoot than stand behind the shooter to RO... dam concussion off of some of those babies are brutal...and fast.

 

[shortround]

Quig, Thanks for making my point there will naturally be more stoppages with 1911's than anything else if most people use the 1911.
In the 1911 vs opens debate sort of figured it like comparing the ak series with the m4's(now that's a hornets nest ) in the fact that the M4's seem to jam all the time and have to be constantly wiped and cleaned but if you put the AK in the same enviroment it will run and run . Main difference the 16's and built to closer tolerences and a little grit (OK over simplified for example) will cause them to fail here the AKs are stamped in bulk bits and just put together to work and drop . Sometimes the more we mess with a design the more we try to perfect it the more suceptable to our abuses we make it . The point was made early in this post just because we can buy the viper dosen't mean that we shouldn't spend more time doing the roadwork in a basic family car before you try ti impress everyone with the viper .

I hope this makes sence to someone other than me !!!

 

[Slavex]

you know it's like some people only read one post and then ignore the rest. the question was anwered, a couple of times, by people that are actually familiar with the inner workings of guns. Yet people still bandy about the BS. no wonder everyone argues in ISPC so much.

 

[colt45gunner]

I think the simplist way to put it is:

All guns, if maintained properly, will function well.

But, the higher end the gun is, the more maintainance it requires to keep its functionality (if that's a word ?)
And don't tincker with what ain't broke !

I'm happy sticking to my Colt 1991A1, w/ some upgrades

Oh ya, Real men shoot .45 lol

 

[Popurhedoff]

I would like to thank all the contributers of this thread. I do like the design of the 1911 even though I do not compete with one. It was my intent to enlist knowledge from our SME (Subject Matter Experts) to ascertain why they do fail.

Knowing why they fail will result in making it a more efficient tool for our competitors. I like when everyone has a good time at a match and it pains me when I see someone have their day go bad because of a malfunction.

Armed with the knowledge of why, hopefully those who do can make slight adjustments to their maintenance practices to help them become more successful in this sport.

Again, thank you all for the great information and good luck on the ranges.

 

[hungrybeagle]

And don't tincker with what ain't broke !

Problem is that some parts will wear over time and become broke without you realizing it. Case in point: I remember at a match one guy on my squad who was having major, major feeding problems. 2 or 3 malfunctions on every stage.

He couldn't figure it out, because he hadn't changed his setup, and things had been working fine last month. His gun was clean, he was using his regular ammunition, he hadn't changed his magazines or anything.

That was the problem. He'd been using the same magazine springs that he had bought six years previously. His magazine springs had worn out. Putting new magazine springs in cured the malfunctions.

Henning mentioned something earlier about heating magazine springs? Does this work, and does anybody know how it is done?

 

[Dragoon]

I like when everyone has a good time at a match and it pains me when I see someone have their day go bad because of a malfunction.

Really? That seems to contradict your statement from your initial post:

As I gloated with glee……

So which is it?

 

[sinnsyk]

Henning mentioned something earlier about heating magazine springs? Does this work, and does anybody know how it is done?

This little tip actually originates from your fellow countryman, Mats, who enlightened me on it when I came to visit him and you all in Canada this summer. He told me "you'll never have to replace your mag springs [again], no need!"

Well, what you do is make a little contraption, say out of aluminium that allows you to stretch and hold the magspring at it's original length. Heat your oven to 500-550 degrees and leave them in there for 1.5 hours. (Sounds like a cookin' tip doesn't it...). That'll reset the springs and you'll be good for another 6-12 months depending on how much you use them.

I did it to my 170mm mag spring when I visited Mats and it's actually been 'springier' and more reliable than when it was new !

If you didn't already know it... Mats is a f#%! genious, but don't tell him