Why I don't compete

As someone truly interested, I have received some encouraging responses. As an organizer of regular Military Rifle Shoots, and a keen newbie of pistol Silhouette shoots, I have some observations, personal and otherwise of what generally turns on/off people from various organized shooting activities. Obviously you have to get them to try it the first time. Then the experience has to be positive for them. Some will just not be into it, others will be hooked, others in-between. Some of that is personal, and other parts are influenced by their first experience.

- get the word out. Get the word personally through acquaintances of active shooters. You show up at the range and a guy asks a lot of questions, don't treat him like a PITA, but consider him/her a potential recruit. Nothing is better than going with a friend. Explain clearly what will be happening, and make it sound fun and friendly. Explain the objective of the shoots, e.g. fun, building friendships, supporting the shooting culture, developing shooting skills, etc.
- make it easy to try. Our Milshoots always include an offer to lend suitable equipment for those yet without it. Providing or at least paying for the ammo is of course their responsibility. Costs are minimal - it's volunteer-based and not a business.
- the events need to be regular. This is more important than being close by, as Gunnutz will go to great lengths to attend a shooting event, but if it's only once or twice a year, interest falls quickly.
- already answered, but don't set up the competition so that you could potentially be knocked out in the first hour. In ours, everyone shoots the whole competition. Of course this doesn't apply in the event of gross misconduct with respect to safety or attitude.
- keep the big egos away from the newbies. Don't belittle their equipment or shooting skills. Be helpful but not condescending.
- not too many hoops to jump through. We already have the PAL requirements, shooting club requirements, storage and handling requirements, etc. We don't need a 20 hour entry course and five events of probation, followed by.....

I'd give it a go. I have an accurate 243 I'd like to try out.
 
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whitbyman said:
I think precision shooting is personal thing. I shoot for myself. I like being alone on the range. Focus-breathing-position-finger placement etc. I don't need or look for validation from others.

I am happy if my grouping shrinks by half an inch.
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I think you may misunderstand the reasoning behind a competition.

When I shoot in a competition I do not look for "validation from others".
I shoot to win the match. Where others approve of my win or not, I do not care.

I also find ggreat satisfaction in shootiing alone. Things are quiet, and you can really concentrate.
This is not he best time to train for a match , however.
If I have a zillion things going oin behind me , with some big boomers going off, it is adds more of the stress involved when match shooting.

We have had many sanctioned matches at our club over the years in all aspects of firearms but long range TR or precision shooting.
Hopefully that will change in the future, bbuut I have a limiited number of shhooters willing to help out, and those that do spend a lot of their own time trying to get our matches together.
Same old story....
Cat
 
In my earlier days I considered competing in rifle competitions and even IPSC but what I noticed was that classifications are based on equipment not dependent on ability of the individual.

Compared to other shooting competitions shotgunning is less dependent on equipment and classifications are based on the shooter's performance not the type of gun he is using. The result is a good shotgunner with a Remington 1100 stands a reasonable chance against the shooter with a Perazzi. How would a rifle competitor with a bone stock Stevens and a Tasco stand up against someone with a tuned but still legal Sako TRG and a Leupold M4?

Unless everyone shoots the same rifle the determinants of true ability are not as easily revealed. This is what discouraged me from taking up rifle competition.
 
Claybuster said:
In my earlier days I considered competing in rifle competitions and even IPSC but what I noticed was that classifications are based on equipment not dependent on ability of the individual.

Compared to other shooting competitions shotgunning is less dependent on equipment and classifications are based on the shooter's performance not the type of gun he is using. The result is a good shotgunner with a Remington 1100 stands a reasonable chance against the shooter with a Perazzi. How would a rifle competitor with a bone stock Stevens and a Tasco stand up against someone with a tuned but still legal Sako TRG and a Leupold M4?

Unless everyone shoots the same rifle the determinants of true ability are not as easily revealed. This is what discouraged me from taking up rifle competition.
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There are factory calsses , stock classes, etc. in riifle shhootiing, to compensate for the "equipment race" , which is human nature, for sure!
'Silhouette and IPSC are prime examples of this.
There are also classes, same as in ATA shooting.

An interesting note, when I was a young scruff , listening in to a conversation with Barney Hartman and my father at a trapshoot (Hamilton?)
They were talkng about shotguns.
Barney made a comment that"years ago you could be competiive with a box stock 870, 1100, or a M12, and win big. NOW, you can't get into it unless you are shooting a highend Perazzi, or Browning , or Kreigoff.
Strange though, the scores are no higher than they used to be!!"

I still like my M12, and my kid still shoots his 870 annd we do well.
My long range TR rifle is obsolete, but it will still win......
Cat
 
I some areas

competition does not occur due to the lack of the facilities and people willing to get involved.

In Manitoba there are only a few ranges capable of holding short range or long range competitions. Selkirk is the Short Range BR 1-200 yard and St.Charles is the Long Range club where they can shoot to 1000. I also believe use at St. Charles is limited to certain days only. St. Charles is the only club in Manitoba where one can shoot out to 1000. There is no place else. It makes it hard for someone from outside of Wpg to get into long range if there is no place to go and practice at any time unless you can find a place to set up ones own range to shoot out to 1000.

Brandon has the potential for Short range BR but it is up to the people to get it rolling. There has to be interest in the discipline and people have to want to get out and help. From what I have seen not many are willing to help. Thus I am in it for myself.

I do agree with the 3D Archery and the IPSC shooting still going strong. Brandon has from what I understand some great IPSC matches thru the summer. They get the help to set up and takedown. From what I have heard there are even people from WPG who buy there memberships in Brandon just to be able to shoot IPSC.

The 3D Archery also appears to have a good following. They have a shoot in January in the Keystone Center and a outdoor shoot in June. Again people come out to support and help.

Why is it that way? I feel people get intimidated at the costs that people think they have to spend to win. In general, I think when it comes to matches it is felt that what is the use in going if I cannot be competitive? Heck I just enjoy the sociallizing with the other people there almost more than the shooting.

Our club even tries to have fun shoots and those are poorly attended. We tried to do rimfire silhoutte this past summer with little success. Usually there were about the same 6 people every week.

Now the Brandon Trap Club is where it is happening in the shooting department. I do not shoot shotgun but I could not believe the crowds there on Tuesdays and Thursdays. It blew my mind away. Why, possibly the equipment that is needed can be had at low cost. You can shoot with a 400.00 shotgun or as high as a Perazzi and still shoot well.

Just a few of my thoughts.
 
I have attended the ORA. intro day and also shot several of the vintage shoots through thr ORA. as a guest. I found the shooting at these longer ranges was quite a eye opener to a 100 meter shooter.(I found my first trip to the buts kind of un-nerving having bullets fly overhead and going plunk in the sand) There is a lot to be learned and found the other competitors quite helpful at getting on target at 600 meters. It is a joy to have the opportunity to shoot on these DND. ranges. My only hang up on joining up is the cost. First there is the yearly ORA. fee which I found reasonable, then there is the match fee, fuel to travel to match, there might be paid markers and last the ammo cost. Now if you want to be competitive you seem to need to shoot lots to stay in the game. So after I did the math I found it was going to cost me more to shoot one match than what I make in a day. But that is me.
If the coin is not a issue have at it you wont regret it. I have nothing but good to say about the competitors and all the different shooting possibilities through this organization. ENJOY!!
 
I have often wondered the same thing...Why don't people get involved? If you go on the photo gallery here and look at some of the gear on here, it makes you wonder why they don't come out. I have PM'd some of the Gunnutz in my area and asked why they don't come out to a shoot and try their gear and skills out and see where it takes them, some have responded and others have not...Oh well, the offer was extended, just have to wait and see who bites.
However there is a huge problem I do see inside competitive shooting organizations, I find it amazing that some of the old chaps in this game are so dead set against change and would rather not have you around than introduce something different than how they have done things since 1960. Well times are changing and if the new members want to do something besides TR, why not try to accomodate them and see where it leads to? It is very rare when all shooting bays are filled up here, so why not give the younger guys half of the range and go to it?
 
I could see the cost of a rifle detering some people, but now that they have the "factory rifle" class, that shouldn't (theoretically) be a problem. And if you can't afford a rifle at the time, why not borrow someones? When I first joined the BCRA they let me shoot a number of practices and even let me shoot in the regional championship. The membership fee also shouldn't be a problem. The BCRA membership fee is cheaper than a year's membership at the local F&G Club, and you get all the help you need and more. Also, I don't see why my fellow Army Reservists don't come out and shoot; the membership fee is something like $25 for us.

-Rohann
 
There are some great points here and no simple answers. Set up the events, get the word out and see what happens.

Cost is not a real concern. Just look at what some will spend on other hobbies like Golf, snowmobiling and 3D Archery. Shooting is dirt cheap by comparison. I think a high end trap shotgun is $15000 to 20000 - YIKES.

Claybuster, your thoughts about equipment is what frustrates me. Modern factory rifles, like Stevens and Savages, would have equalled or even beat top end TR rifles from a few decades back.

A heavy barrel Savage with a bedded tuperware stock can and will shoot up to that TRG. Unfortunately, no one takes the time to give it a try.

There are no shortage of HB Svages that are true 1/3MOA rifles. Just look around at all the posts and pics of targets posted on this forum. Is a 1/3MOA Savage less accurate then a 1/3MOA TRG?

So the cost issue is more in the mind then in reality. The cost of optics is also not all that high anymore.

Personally, I would use a Nikon buckmaster/ Monarch or Elite 4200 then that Luppy Mk4.

In fact, for the cost of that Mk4, you can have a COMPLETE F(TR) or F(O) Stevens rifle capable of winning at a national/international event. My project rifles have proven that time and time again.

I think one way to help with the 'fear' of losing is to introduce a handicapp system similar to golf. The event would be scored on gross and net scores.

It works in the world of golf which is more neurotic about gear and where the skills of golfers range from amazing to complete crap.

Jerry
 
Location and cost is why I don't compete. In NW Ontario I can go out and shoot 1000yds + if I want, on crown land and less than 45min from town.

The only range near me goes to 300yds, however it's rarely open, you have to be a member, and they rarely have any real competions. Anytime I've talked to the club owners it seems as though I'm always interupting something. I've never felt welcome and felt like they didn't have the time for me. So I decided to look into opening a range myself, I called the CFO, got the information package, and decided it wasn't worth it. I wanted a huge range that was open to everyone from law enforcement to military and the public. Pipe dream.

Funny thing, I just saw a commercial for my local ski hill, seen'em for the golf courses, and seen'em for the hockey clubs but I've never seen one for a shooting range. If we want more people to be involved in the shooting sports, we need to advertise the same way. Let them know about the competions, prizes, and the locations of these events. They need to be open to everyone.
 
Why don't I compete in ORA?

I got bored. Shooting the same thing over and over again.

Found it difficult to get involved at the start.

At the end of the day every just walked away, no prizes, nothing. (I've also never been approached to sponsor or provide prizes for an ORA match)

Compared to 3 gun/tactical and other types of shooting, it's not the same level of social activity.
 
I started competing (BR) in 1976 and have have had an "on again, off again" romance with various shooting sports since. I've seen other guys who, like myself, come and go. Mostly because they get to a certain level then stall out and the excitement is gone for them. For others, other interests take over.
In many cases the reluctance of new shooters to come out is one of perception. They think they can't be competitive. They think they might be unwelcome. In other cases it's much like Tony said. They've been bragging for too long and don't want to be found out!
In Canada, travelling is always a problem for those who live a distance from the ranges. I have to travel about 300 miles to compete and can count on spending close to 100 dollars just for gas. Others have to travel further yet. On the other hand, I can shoot all I want right in my backyard. The only drawback to this is the lack of the social interaction the matches provide.
Ultimately, equipment costs are what you make them regardless of the shooting discipline chosen. You can spend $4000.00 for a BR rifle but you don't have to in order to be able to win. The same is true of "F" class or TR.
I think more and more people are simply talkers and planners rather than doers. Sometimes, I'm not much better! Regards, Bill.
 
Simple......in my case it was FEAR!!!!!
It seems that every shooting sport I've gotten into has taken someone in that sport to "take me by the hand" to the first visit and "introduce" me to the sport ,the game and some people.Generally once I've crossed that FEAR bridge and found it wasn't all that intimidating and that there were good people to meet and have fun with, and with health permitting I always went back for more.
Guess I'm a little old school(shy??) and like being INTRODUCED by someone .Maybe if we (experienced shooters in our sports) were to make a point of bringing out someone new to intro days and even matches each time we went,we could see growth in each of the sports we attend????
I have yet to attend any type of shooting sport where I haven't met and made good friends and learned something new.
On the other hand I could make up all kinds of excuses why a new shooter might not want to as I've heard them all from some people I've invited out to join me.
Ah well ...those that want to will and those that don't won't.. like Bill L said.
 
I was thinking about it. Unfortunately the handful of people around me (that are still with us) that particpate in these sports seem to stick to themselves.

Being that much of the shooting is done on DND property, it's not the kind of place I feel comfortable just walking into to watch the show.

Entry fee's also seem kind of steep. Especially after the other expenses that go into setting up, ammo and travel. If entry costs are for range rental, insurance etc.etc. well I guess that's that, however I've never been one for wasting money on trophies and prizes.
 
From my own observations, the term "competition" carries many intimidating connotations for new shooters. I remember going to my first match and thinking "I aint even on the same planet as these guys with their fancy custom guns". The other thing I noticed was that I was the youngest guy there by decades.

I think the ball has to be thrown in the the DCRA and the Provincial Rifle Associations and clubs to create a beginner-friendly type of match in order to attract people to that part of the sport. You have to be able to afford to play and frankly an investment of several grand in gun, optics and reloading stuff is beyond a lot of people.

Expanding on the factory gun classes is an excellent start. To many it may be seen as like having drag races for minivans, but the quest for the tool that does juuuuust a little better is where it all starts. Holding and promoting an all-factory F-class shoot would be a great project to allow people with entry level equipment to compete with a chance of success.
 
For anyone new to a match, please remember that most competitors are pretty focused on shooting well or organizing for a relay or helping out the match.

Sometimes this comes across as being short or snobby. It 's just us being focused and very busy.

I have met very few shooters over the years that were not nice and generous with information and/or help AFTER the event. Put a few drinks in some and you will learn their life's story :)

Sort of like visiting a pit crew during an Indy race and wondering why no one wants to sit and chat about how to get started in racing.

Beginners events are a great idea. I see that many groups are fighting to find the right formula for their discipline. You can't please everyone. I think making a class fit off the shelf gear is the best you can do.

Again, I don't think cost is the main issue. Ever take a family for a day of skiing or golfing? Any guesses on what an amateur car racer burns off in tires in a weekend if he/she wants to be competitive?

Shooting is by far the least expensive sport where you can have the very best of gear. There are not many equipment based sports where you can own top of the line 'F1' level gear capable of winning anywhere for 1/3 the cost of the average new jet ski/snowmobile/quad.

And competitive gear costs less then a set of fancy rims on a car/truck.

What we need to do is change public perception about shooting and shooters/guns in general. Recreational shooting is no more 'evil' then a noisy driving range.

Jerry
 
I joined the ORA a couple years ago. I really enjoyed shooting out at longer distances. There weren't as many people shooting as I expected and it was a little too formal. I think more people would be interested if they allowed more informal shooting and guests to tag along. Access needs to be made easier for newbies, let them come out and shoot a few times with their own guns for free, it doesn't cost the club anything to have a few more people out. There needs to be more shoots and held regulary, same place, same time so people can count on the range being available. Winnona is 25min. away from me and 1hr. from Toronto but there are hardly any regular shoots there, yet this is in the centre of the greatest concentration of people in Ontario. If Winnona had regular shoots say every Sunday I'm sure more people would get out there. How about pay as you go memberships for those who aren't regulars, guaranteed during hunting season you'll make a small forture with guys sighting in their rifles. How about some fun shoots open to anyone, even non member to draw interest, by fun (God forbid) I mean stuff other than paper. Make it regular, fun, informal and people would get more involved. More rules, irregular shoots with schedules that change and you'll stiffle any interest.
 
mysticplayer said:
What we need to do is change public perception about shooting and shooters/guns in general. Recreational shooting is no more 'evil' then a noisy driving range.

Jerry
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You hit it bang on!!!

How many people have died or got seriously hurt racing cars? I'd bet you anything that more people have died or got hurt racing than participating in a recreational shooting sport.
 
581, more people get hurt or die having showers at home then recreational use of firearms and/or hunting!!!!!!

Was thrilled to see an article on the COVER of the Vancouver Sun today. It was about Sharon Gregson who is a Vancouver School trustee talking about her feelings on recreational gun use.

When did we ever get front page coverage in a positive manner? She even has her IPSC belt and 1911 in the pics.

I am floored!!!!!

If I could scan the article, I would post it however I can type this much:

" I will continue to speak publicly, as a respected educator, about firearms being a healthy part of society and not the scary, illegal, murderous weapons the media and politicians would often have us believe" Sharon Gregson, in the Canadian Firearms Journal.

Go Girl Go.

Gunslinger, one of the big reasons why shooting events can be quite rigid is simply SAFETY. Federal range rules are quite clear on how a range must operated during live fire especially at an event. The range officers butt is seriously on the line if there is any injury due to inappropriate discharge.

So for legal and liability reasons, shooting will continue to be safey first and that means rules especially in how/when/where a firearm can be handled. Yes, there are quite a few shooters who get turned off by this.

However, I have been 'shot at' once when at the target backstop. Let's just say, I had no fun. Yes, the range was cleared before hand properly but someone decided that he just wanted to make one quick shot then he was leaving anyways. Couldn't wait the two minutes for me to get back.

Legally, the fault would have fallen on the range officer but since I know he is extremely careful (arguably too careful), I blame the shooter who should have known better. I usually wear a bright red jacket so not exactly hard to see. I guess he figured he wouldn't hit me so that was OK.

Want that type of attitude with 20 shooters on the line?

The struggle with having weekly events is simply one of volunteer help. Easy enough to say that a club should have events available but who is going to do the work. No one is usually compensated for their time and efforts. I have been the one doing all the work and you burn out pretty quickly.

If everyone that shot also helped out in some way, there would be events everyday. But once people also have to work, the number of helpers plummets.

So we either help out or pay others to do the work. That raises entry fees.

The last Kamloops F class shoot cost me $50 for entry fees. I did not have to work in the pits. For two days, a crew of workers did all the target work allowing us to concentrate on shooting and relaxing.

For a two day match - $50, that is a smoking deal. Remember that some of any entry fee also goes to pay insurance premiums for the range for guests. I think we can all agree that insurance is getting expensive.

Reduce costs, increase services - sorry but that only works in the gov't.

Jerry
 
I am a member of my PRA had have been for many years but I find that many of the criticisms are true.
F-Class is basically TR with a scope. Big round target. One shot marked at a time. Slow. Boring. I think I have only ever attended one or two of those matches. There are more interesting rifle matches being shot in some of the PRA's such as Precision (sniper) and Service Rifle, but in Ontario at least, the old guard seem to try to direct newcomers away from these sections, and many newbies go away not even knowing these matches exist. Do the Intro days use the military Figure 11&12 targets? Do they have snaps and movers and rundowns? Not from what I've heard.

Another problem is the rule about membership. Many people would prefer to try something a couple times before shelling out a couple of hundred dollars for a membership fee. Intro days are great if you are a complete stranger, but if you are a member and want to bring one or two of your buddies to come along and participate in a shoot with you, it is not allowed unless they have gone through the Intro days.
 
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