antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
read what i quoted he says certificate of origin i said i dont need one as i know where the lee enfield i have came from a also know the bayo was used
Why is Bubba so despised??
- Thread starter vinver
- Start date
read what i quoted he says certificate of origin i said i dont need one as i know where the lee enfield i have came from a also know the bayo was used
Pistols, I completely understand. But your grandfather managed to pilfer his WWII Canadian issue service rifle and bring it home with him? It would be very interesting to see if it could ever be proven.
There's a Korean war veteran I met here in Ottawa who is also on CGN. He explained to me that after the war he bought an RCAF No. 4 Mk. 1 that was exactly like the one he used when he was in the service.
I suspect many other veterans had the same idea. I wonder if some veterans decided to tell their grandkids it was their rifle during the war, when in actual fact it was purchased when many rifles were surplused and it became a good story.
Not saying it's impossible, but it would be interesting if you could prove your statement with either photos or documentation.
-Steve
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
well there is blood under the forend wood i dont think its from a deer. if i remember right you had to buy the gun off of the gov
he also had a few other bring backs but they where givin to a friend of the family back in the 80's
In one small way bubba has helped me with a decent winter project,..restoring two #1 Mk 3 Enfields...on the other hand it's been a complete PITA to source some parts,..mainly wood...and it's still fun fun fun!!
"But your grandfather managed to pilfer his WWII Canadian issue service rifle and bring it home with him?"
I too doubt the authenticity of most of these "my grandfather's service rifle" stories.
For one thing, they were government property and had to be returned, and for another, most guy had to pack the damn thing around for 3 or 4 years already and were glad to be rid of it.
I too doubt the authenticity of most of these "my grandfather's service rifle" stories.
For one thing, they were government property and had to be returned, and for another, most guy had to pack the damn thing around for 3 or 4 years already and were glad to be rid of it.
I did know a man who managed to liberate an SMLE while the Newfies were being demobbed for return home in 1919.
It was NOT the rifle which he had used in combat because that one was taken by Fritz when my friend was "KIA" in the Spring of 1917. He was discovered, alive, in a German POW camp a year later: Summer of 1918. When the War ended, he was removed to England, did a week in a hospital there and was restored to his Regiment and equipped with another rifle. Once the Peace of Versailles was signed, the Newfies led the March into the Rhineland (late Spring of 1919), then were pulled out, demobbed and sent home.
What you did was turn in your rifle and have your name marked off the list. Then you picked up a "spare" rifle from all those heaps of rifles that were standing about. Because you had already turned in your ISSUE rifle, THIS one must have been "your own property". So you took "your own rifle" to the Armourer along with $5 or a Pound in money or a bottle of GOOD booze and you asked the Armourer for his help. He then would use that long, long turnscrew to remove the Butt Bolt so that "your" rifle would fit into your duffel bag.
And that is how it was done.
I held that rifle and I actually shot that rifle once, which was only fair: my friend Jack Snow had already used MY rifle to shoot my buns off at the local range. I got the photos, though.
I have seen several Newfoundland SMLEs which underwent the same treatment, but only the single, unmolested specimen, in the hands of the man who actually brought it back.
It WAS possible, given that you (and the Armourer) saw eye-to-eye on the small matter of assisting His Majesty to dispose of some of this surplus old, wrecked equipment that was standing about in heaps of tens of thousands and would never be needed again..... except to pot a Moose on a far-off Island.
It was, if you like, a patriotic duty.
Newfies have ALWAYS done their patriotic duty; that's how they got ALL those battle-honours.
This was just a bit more of the same.
To give Jack credit where it is due, he used that same rifle in local Home Defence duties in the Second War as well.
When Jack passed away at age 87, the rifle went to his son, along with 3 chargers and 15 drill rounds which I made him up.
It was NOT the rifle which he had used in combat because that one was taken by Fritz when my friend was "KIA" in the Spring of 1917. He was discovered, alive, in a German POW camp a year later: Summer of 1918. When the War ended, he was removed to England, did a week in a hospital there and was restored to his Regiment and equipped with another rifle. Once the Peace of Versailles was signed, the Newfies led the March into the Rhineland (late Spring of 1919), then were pulled out, demobbed and sent home.
What you did was turn in your rifle and have your name marked off the list. Then you picked up a "spare" rifle from all those heaps of rifles that were standing about. Because you had already turned in your ISSUE rifle, THIS one must have been "your own property". So you took "your own rifle" to the Armourer along with $5 or a Pound in money or a bottle of GOOD booze and you asked the Armourer for his help. He then would use that long, long turnscrew to remove the Butt Bolt so that "your" rifle would fit into your duffel bag.
And that is how it was done.
I held that rifle and I actually shot that rifle once, which was only fair: my friend Jack Snow had already used MY rifle to shoot my buns off at the local range. I got the photos, though.
I have seen several Newfoundland SMLEs which underwent the same treatment, but only the single, unmolested specimen, in the hands of the man who actually brought it back.
It WAS possible, given that you (and the Armourer) saw eye-to-eye on the small matter of assisting His Majesty to dispose of some of this surplus old, wrecked equipment that was standing about in heaps of tens of thousands and would never be needed again..... except to pot a Moose on a far-off Island.
It was, if you like, a patriotic duty.
Newfies have ALWAYS done their patriotic duty; that's how they got ALL those battle-honours.
This was just a bit more of the same.
To give Jack credit where it is due, he used that same rifle in local Home Defence duties in the Second War as well.
When Jack passed away at age 87, the rifle went to his son, along with 3 chargers and 15 drill rounds which I made him up.
I'm not tryingto stir up any (***t) here, just asking. Nor would I try to pass off a rebuilt example as an unmolested original., I think for the most part it would be pretty obvious, and I respect the choice of anybody who does not want to buy a rebuilt example. I would speculate however, that many desporterized models are being used and shoot very well, or in private collections, that have been worked on or had parts replaced by somebody other than a certified gunsmith experienced in the make or model. With fewer and fewer Lee Enfield in active use, and older gunsmiths retiring, who's going to work on your work out rifle or replace broken parts?
'NUFF SAID?
A picture's worth a thousand words.. A friend of mine once bought a Triumph motorcycle that was "completely restored" , if you consider some Vinyl pinstripe tape and Trans Am sticker on the tank as a restoration
That is why I wasn't interested in your IMA Brunswick that you had on the EE.MANY collectors feel as I do.LMAO
Just had a look along the Hall of Shame here, viewing some of Bubba's handiwork.
1871 Mauser Cavalry Carbines, TWO of them, chopped down for lightweight sporters. Two grand reduced to 100 clams max.
1874 Swiss Vetterli Cavalry Carbine, action swells ground off so a slimmer fore-end could be made, mag chopped (!!!) & so forth. Super-rare rifle reduced to scrap.
1884 Mauser IG-71/84 rebuilt into a 22-inch Carbine. Only tools used: hacksaw and hammer. Thousand bucks down to 50.
Snider parts to make half a rifle. Problem is that they represent 4 different wrecked rifles.
1871 Mauser long rifle, made by Steyr, rebuilt into a Sporter with the traditional hammer and hacksaw.
1889 Schmitt-Rubin with an excellent bore, stock completely ruined by shortening to make it "practical".
A DOZEN poor old SMLEs which have received the Farmer's Fix into handy sporters, among them a 1904 LONDON SMALL ARMS Mark I***.
Lee-Enfield Cavalry Carbine with RNWMP markings and a 2-digit serial number, chopped to make it "handy".
NICE little 24-bore double gun pulled apart and half the parts lost.
I know where there is the wreckage of FIFTY more, all in similar condition.
I weep, verily.
But that is Bubba's handiwork.
After looking at those, I don't at all mind the A.G. Parker Lee-Metford shop-rebuilt into a custom sporter. I don't mind the gold front sight or the Parker barrel or even Alf Parker's own serial number (0019) on the thing. THIS one is being restored to what it was when it left Parker's shop, just with some of the wear left on it and a lot of the abuse corrected. It should be a shooter, too: nice, heavy 23-inch barrel. NOR do I mind the gloriously-beautiful 1959 BSA Custom-grade sporter with its 1960 Weaver K-4 scope, even if the barrel date is 27 years older than I am (and I am definitely getting "up there"): it started off as a Model 1917. And I don't at all mind the shop-built PLY-marked 1910 Ross Sporter because that PLY marking tells me that this one served with the Royal Marines through BOTH World Wars, AFTER it was discarded by the Canadian Corps. The OTHER chopped Rosses bother me, though, because they all done by Farmer Fred and Brother Bubba, even the "lightweight, improved" heavy-barrel 1905 Match rifle.
So what do I do?
Pick up spare parts when I find them and can afford them and slowly, slowly, try to assemble enough parts to get one looking the way it did, 95 years ago.
No, I am NOT a qualified, certified Armourer with Factory experience, nor am I a "qualified gunsmith" (one of those guys I have to teach about Rosses).... but do you know anybody ELSE who is willing to work on these things..... for FREE..... and try to get them some respect back?
There ARE a few guys who are willing to make the effort. We shouldn't crap all over them and their tiny parade because there are NOT very many guys who really CARE. Lou is a great example.
Only thing I CARE about with a restoration is that the job is DONE RIGHT.
Only problem THERE is that that lets out about 80% of the ones being done. This means that they are no better than my own first attempt, 45 years ago. But as the rifles pass from hand to hand, people will learn and the work will be re-done (unless some idiot throws it into the fire because it's not up to his oh-so-high standards) and a FEW of the old-timers will regain their places as integral and necessary pieces of our national heritage.
And that's enough for me.
But Bubba and Fred really SHOULD be burned at the stake.
1871 Mauser Cavalry Carbines, TWO of them, chopped down for lightweight sporters. Two grand reduced to 100 clams max.
1874 Swiss Vetterli Cavalry Carbine, action swells ground off so a slimmer fore-end could be made, mag chopped (!!!) & so forth. Super-rare rifle reduced to scrap.
1884 Mauser IG-71/84 rebuilt into a 22-inch Carbine. Only tools used: hacksaw and hammer. Thousand bucks down to 50.
Snider parts to make half a rifle. Problem is that they represent 4 different wrecked rifles.
1871 Mauser long rifle, made by Steyr, rebuilt into a Sporter with the traditional hammer and hacksaw.
1889 Schmitt-Rubin with an excellent bore, stock completely ruined by shortening to make it "practical".
A DOZEN poor old SMLEs which have received the Farmer's Fix into handy sporters, among them a 1904 LONDON SMALL ARMS Mark I***.
Lee-Enfield Cavalry Carbine with RNWMP markings and a 2-digit serial number, chopped to make it "handy".
NICE little 24-bore double gun pulled apart and half the parts lost.
I know where there is the wreckage of FIFTY more, all in similar condition.
I weep, verily.
But that is Bubba's handiwork.
After looking at those, I don't at all mind the A.G. Parker Lee-Metford shop-rebuilt into a custom sporter. I don't mind the gold front sight or the Parker barrel or even Alf Parker's own serial number (0019) on the thing. THIS one is being restored to what it was when it left Parker's shop, just with some of the wear left on it and a lot of the abuse corrected. It should be a shooter, too: nice, heavy 23-inch barrel. NOR do I mind the gloriously-beautiful 1959 BSA Custom-grade sporter with its 1960 Weaver K-4 scope, even if the barrel date is 27 years older than I am (and I am definitely getting "up there"): it started off as a Model 1917. And I don't at all mind the shop-built PLY-marked 1910 Ross Sporter because that PLY marking tells me that this one served with the Royal Marines through BOTH World Wars, AFTER it was discarded by the Canadian Corps. The OTHER chopped Rosses bother me, though, because they all done by Farmer Fred and Brother Bubba, even the "lightweight, improved" heavy-barrel 1905 Match rifle.
So what do I do?
Pick up spare parts when I find them and can afford them and slowly, slowly, try to assemble enough parts to get one looking the way it did, 95 years ago.
No, I am NOT a qualified, certified Armourer with Factory experience, nor am I a "qualified gunsmith" (one of those guys I have to teach about Rosses).... but do you know anybody ELSE who is willing to work on these things..... for FREE..... and try to get them some respect back?
There ARE a few guys who are willing to make the effort. We shouldn't crap all over them and their tiny parade because there are NOT very many guys who really CARE. Lou is a great example.
Only thing I CARE about with a restoration is that the job is DONE RIGHT.
Only problem THERE is that that lets out about 80% of the ones being done. This means that they are no better than my own first attempt, 45 years ago. But as the rifles pass from hand to hand, people will learn and the work will be re-done (unless some idiot throws it into the fire because it's not up to his oh-so-high standards) and a FEW of the old-timers will regain their places as integral and necessary pieces of our national heritage.
And that's enough for me.
But Bubba and Fred really SHOULD be burned at the stake.
- Location
- Beaverlodge, Alberta
Smellie brings up another good point, what if there are no as issued originals? Then I wonder about the monetary value of those particular rifles.
The restored rifles do definitely have their place. I know with my own collection, for the most part they will be the ones which get used and shot the most. There is nothing wrong with undoing bubba, just so long as its not being passed off as an original. If you can get as issued price for a piece you have restored though, what is wrong with that as long as it has been made clear that it is restored? I know at the rate I'm going the one I'm working on I'll have double what I could sell it for into it, and that's if I could get as issued price.
The restored rifles do definitely have their place. I know with my own collection, for the most part they will be the ones which get used and shot the most. There is nothing wrong with undoing bubba, just so long as its not being passed off as an original. If you can get as issued price for a piece you have restored though, what is wrong with that as long as it has been made clear that it is restored? I know at the rate I'm going the one I'm working on I'll have double what I could sell it for into it, and that's if I could get as issued price.
In the sniper book ' Out of Nowhere " they have a picture of Canadian Snipers in WW1. The stocks on several of the Ross rifles have been...well... Bubba'd. The wood removed to just ahead of the front band
To a large percentage of the folks on this board, that is a travesty.
But it made sense to the snipers and obviously some of the Armourer's. Someone cut those rifles, why? Because they worked better without the warped and swelling wood applying pressure on your BBL
To a large percentage of the folks on this board, that is a travesty.
But it made sense to the snipers and obviously some of the Armourer's. Someone cut those rifles, why? Because they worked better without the warped and swelling wood applying pressure on your BBL
Last edited:
- Location
- West coast of Vancouver Island
I think we have too many stickies as it is.
Kayser Sose
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Van Isle
because he takes something good, and
f u c k s it all to
h e l l
f u c k s it all to
h e l l
That is no longer in production at that.
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
It's not my complaint that people "sportyized" these rifles when they were plentiful, but rather there are people STILL DOING THAT when thery are now far fewer in original condition. A commercial sporting rifle now is less expensive than an unaltered original military one
If you could prove that particular rifle was cut in the field then my money would say it has real value. It's the one cut badly by some guy because he doesn't want to hump a few extra pound in the woods, that one isn't worth much to me. I value military correctness in the sense of what was used, not necessarily perfect. If soldiers "bubba'd" their service rifles in the field then that is a historical reality to me.
