Why Lapua Brass???

acrashb said:
Because people who buy assembled cartridges don't generally reload? So the primer pocket issues don't matter at that point.
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Correct, although the old stuff I had survived very elevated pressures and didn't open the primer pocket after 10 firings. I have heard others lots were soft like taffy so it varies.

But is the measure of 'good' brass how tight the pockets stay at pressures beyond normal?

or the smallness (good word?) of the groups they can help provide?

or if they come in a very solid plastic box or a simple plastic bag?

or if the annealing coloration is on the brass or polished off?

Precision shooters usually strive to use the best gear they can but what is best for one shooter may not be best for another.

And that is my point, saying brand X is THE BEST and ONLY whatever discounts the value of brand Y.

Like saying Sierra bullets are the BEST and the ONLY bullet to use - yes, there are ALOT of Palma shooters that would/could say that. And they have a very lengthy and successful history.

But then, that would discount the benefits and victories of shooters who used Berger and Lapua.

And some barrels just will not shoot your favorite brand no matter what you do.

So as I said above, there are precious few absolutes in this sport. There are great batches and there are some stinkers (yes, Lapua has made some stinker lots of brass and bullets, but that is few and far between and it happens to EVERY company)

We all have our pet brands and products. However, trying new items and new methods does open opportunities that might lead to increased success.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
Since brass gets work hardened, I wonder if brass life could be extended / primer pocket sizes maintained by shooting light loads in new brass and gradually working the load up after each firing.

The work hardening should firm up the web area after a few shots... shouldnt it?

Food for thought I suppose
 
Yes, and no.

Yes, repeated firing will work harden the case head but that is already the toughest part of the case.

No, when a case is fired it expands and takes a set - assuming you don't size the base. After a couple of firings, that is pretty much done.

Ramping up the pressures at that point simply leads to the same stretching and likely leads to FASTER primer pocket loosening because elasticity is all but gone.

There seems to be an obsession with super high pressures and all manner of tweaks or tricks are used to mask what we really ought to know about.

Magnum pressures ie 65,000psi is what ALL of our gear is stressed for. Everything works well and everything lasts a good long time at or below these levels.

In fact, ammo tend to be very stable when pressures are held to 60,000psi or so. Powder burns cleanly, consistently which leads to the best part - accuracy.

Going over this and past magnum pressures can lead to real fussy tuning and the need to constantly adjust load for ambient conditions.

The pressure curve is exponential after magnum pressures are reached. A small change in conditions can lead to a large change in pressures which affects tuning and sends bullets everywhere but where intended. Big royal PITA and can lead to case failures and other structural damage.

Proof loads start at 70,000psi but are usually 80,000psi. I bet there are some common match loads that are in this territory. Bolt lift, primer pockets are lousy ways to determine pressure especially in a custom or tuned up action.

Velocity is about the best method we have (not perfect either) and we can compare to load manuals to see how we are doing.

Extended use at these pressure WILL lead to accelerated metal fatigue and wear. I like my face and body parts way too much to bother using pressure for another 100fps or making a way too small case try and behave like a larger one.

I keep pressures right around the 60,000psi range according to quickload. Brass takes a set and pretty much lasts the life of the barrel(s) - annealing of the necks is required.

Everything seems to work nicely and very stable over a wide range of ambient conditions.

With proper case prep, ALL brands of modern brass can be made to shoot at match levels. Some brands are better manf out of the box and some use stronger alloys.

However, that stronger alloy can and will mask the real operating pressures and that can lead to some real long term excitement.

Jerry
 
I"m no expert but I've been working with a bunch of .308 Lapua brass that I received for Christmas a couple of years ago. I also use Norma and Nosler Brass. I recently shot my best group in my .308 and that was with the same lapua cases that I've been reloading since then. I think it was on its 6th or 7th reload and they were just as good as the first reload.. perhaps better?

I've also found that with my lapua cases, I had to sort them into less groups when weight sorting as the differences between the light ones and heavy ones were much smaller.
 
How was the AVERAGE accuracy affected?

I fully expect obtimum loads to vary from brand to brand and lot to lot but with the best loads, did the average accuracy over several groups change/improve?

I have nothing against Lapua brass or any brand. They all have their quirks.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
How was the AVERAGE accuracy affected?

I fully expect obtimum loads to vary from brand to brand and lot to lot but with the best loads, did the average accuracy over several groups change/improve?

I have nothing against Lapua brass or any brand. They all have their quirks.

Jerry
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I can't really evaluate that because each reload I did was using a different bullet/powder combination, so my accuracy with each load had too many variables that had more impact than the case type.

I did sort my cases using my forster case inspector and found that the Lapua cases had more good (within .002") or excellent (less than .001") case thickness consistency (my grading system). I sorted them into three groups, the third group being greater than .002".

Comparing those to the other cases I have inspected including federal, norma, nosler, remington, and winchester, they were up there in the top. Norma were as expected very good as well and I haven't reloaded enough Noslers to get a good sample size.

What I did then was weight sort each of the good and excellent groups seperately and put them into shooting groups and then fired them. That is what got me the amazing group in the last session with the .308.

Case prep goes a long way and generally speaking, The Lapua cases were very consistent. But I also think that by far they are the thickest which for some may sacrifice a tiny amount of volume, but they also have the reputation for lasting longer than most other cases before they start to show signs of wear.

The Nosler brass by comparison has some more intricate work done in terms of care when forming. You can see this primarily by looking into a Nosler case vs say, a Lapua, The inside of the primer hole is flat in a lapua as if just simple drilled in. In the Nosler case however, the inside of the primer hole is chamfered and smoothed out. As well, they seem to be centered better than the Lapua. They also have great consistency in their weights and neck thicknesses.

The difference though that sets them apart from the Lapua is that the Nosler cases are thinner and use a softer Brass than the Lapua, this can be seen in weight as well from what I've read from people with by far more experience than myself. As I said, I am no expert, I just happen to have some of each.

So that would make the Lapua more durable, but perhaps a little less consistent in the finishing work in the box. Does this make either more accurate? I have no idea. But I like both, however the Nosler is more expensive and from what I can tell, won't last as long as the Lapua cases further down in their lifecycle.

I still buy both, primarily due to differences in case availability. Nosler makes 260rem cases and Lapua does not. For my .260AI, I've been doing both Nosler .260 and Lapua .243 brass for my case forming. Each being slightly different than the other.

I honestly haven't had much range time at all.. well ANY with my new rifle but I have an uncle with the same chambering and we have been reloading for that. I have though spent a lot of time doing case prep in anticipation of getting it out to the range.

for the .308 I've just been re-reloading over and over my lapua and nosler cases. The Lapua are about 2 or 3 reloads behind the Norma ones but I'll still be able to see how they compare as they get more and more reloads through them.

wow that ended up going from what I thought would be a quick response to something really long winded..
 
Other than the great consitency of Lapua the bench guys like it because you can use it in specific match chambers with out turning necks. Like a 6BR with a .262 chamber neck.
 
I have been using winchester 308 brass in my .308 F/TR. I only have had one range session since I got it... testing was pretty good.

Velocities where very consistant, best 3 shot sight in group I shot was 0.267" and best 5 shot group was .577" at 100 yards.

This was my very first time using the rifle... since then I totally preped my brass and will start to see what it can do a 300 yards and work on a custom load for the gun.

On a ten shot string I averaged 2947.2 FPS With 155 A-Max, 10 shot 2941, 2958, 2936, 2953, 2955, 2949, 2952, 2943, 2951, 2934 and those where with all different lenth brass I did some measureing and found out there where all not he same lenth I have corrected this by trimming them to all the same spec. I dont know how much the velocity spread can be improved but maybe it will get even better.

I got 20 for 20 hits on my 2moa gong at 300 yards so next time Ill have to see what it can do on paper.

I had sold alot of lapua brass when I could get it, it looks pretty but never used it due to the cost. I dont shoot matches I just shoot for fun so winchester has proved good quality and priced right.
 
ceriksson, great report and testing. Yes, brass prep is the way to get the most out of your rifle no matter the brand. I don't weight sort my brass as I have found weight to be a very unreliable measure of case volume which is what you are weighing your brass for in the first place.

If you want to compare volume, compare volume. Takes about the same time as sticking a case on the scale. Only compare brass that you have fired once.

I always neck turn my match brass. As you have found, even Lapua will vary a smidge in neck thickness. That is simply a by product of how brass is made. If you are using a bushing neck die, variations in 1 or more thou in the neck thickness will throw neck tensions all over the map.

There was a nice article in 6mmBR.com from a top SR BR US shooter who also came to the conclusion that neck turning was the best way to get accuracy.

Just skimming and removing the high spots to clean up at least 70% of the circumferance yields pretty much identical necks. Now your bushing die can do its magic. Given how thick Lapua neck are, taking off say 1 thou will not hurt anything and you now have perfectly matched necks.

Remember that if you have to trim your cases, you likely have to neck turn as the brass had to come from somewhere and will not migrate evenly around the neck. Measure cases you have fired a few times and in need of being trimmed vs new cases that you have sorted into the same batch.

If you feel like it, work up the best load using each brand of brass. Then shoot a few groups (4 5rds groups ought to give you some good data) and compare the AVERAGE group size - of course, shoot under the best conditions you can to get rid of any error due to wind. 200yds will provide more info then 100yds. 300yds is best of all.

Let us know what you get....

Jerry
 
Yea I might consider comparing volumes as well, right now simply weighing is working well for me, but I might consider volume weighing. As in pouring some kind of material into the case and weighing that. Any ideas on the best medium? water or something? Though that sounds like a lot of work.

I think a good way to go would be to do things in a certain order so you aren't weight sorting cases that have gone through different steps and firings. First would be to trim to an exact length between cases then neck turning for consistency THEN weight sort. That way you know that for these cases they should have a smaller difference in weight in the sense that they haven't gone through different stages of prep amongst themselves.

As for neck turning. I just happened to receive my forster case trimmer in the mail yesterday so I'm looking forward to start neck turning. i already have the neck turning set and all the pilots, the trimmer was just backordered until now.

I also have the inside neck reamer which I have already successfully used in removing the 'donut' from the inside of my necked up .243 Lapua cases. Works perfectly.

I'm looking forward to delve deeper into the case prep world now that I have more tools to do it with.
 
Best investment I made was building a case annealer - WOW got rid of a big variable.

To compare case volume, using water is just shy of Chinese water torture... and not so very accurate.

I use a very fine grain ball powder - WC680. With fireformed, and trimmed cases, I pour a full case of 680, tapping to make sure it is as full as possible. Leave the funnel on when tapping. Carefully remove and skim off the extra so that the powder level is flush with the top of the case.

Move funnel to next case and dump in powder. It will overflow but settle down after you tap the case a bunch. Where did it fill to? I allow for 1/16" either side of level as that amounts of SFA in actual CC's.

Dump into the next case and repeat. After a few cases, you will get the rhythm of how much to tap the case and the powder will simply flow and compact. Takes a few seconds to check the volume.

Now you have compared the case volumes. Very very rarely do I find a case from the same lot of brass that has a way different case volume. However, case weights can vary greatly. I have given up measuring case volumes as I never found any real problems regardless of the brand or chambering.

As long as they all came from the same bag/box of brass, I consider that good enough.

I was going to mention about not using 243 brass but you already have the solution to the problem.

For me case prep is about making each case as near identical to the next one as possible. Most every step offers very incremental benefits but added up, makes a difference if only in the shooters mind.

Enjoy the testing and prep work. Do a fair comparison through shooting and find what gives you the best benefits on paper.

How's your scale? Another big area of improvement possible.

Jerry
 
Well there was another element in that group I shot recently besides just the case prep. It was also the first time using my new Acculab Scale.

That was another huge improvement in precision. I was able to load cases with the same amount of powder down to the single kernel of powder. or .02gr

That scale is fantastic and I have yet to have any issues with it, especially compared to my last electronic scale.

On another note on the .243 cases. I also wrote back and forth with the author of the article on the 260AI that we have referenced here and there. He was the one that wrote about the donut.

http://www.the-long-family.com/260AI.htm

We emailed back and forth a few times and although he did end up getting an inside reamer and did find it worked no problem, he has since gone to using remington .260 cases out of simplicity. He also mentioned he was going to experiment necking Lapua .308 down as you have also suggested.


Oh and for reference for everyone. I did do a weight experiment between Remington, Federal, Lapua and Nosler cases:

Lightest to heaviest: Federal, Nosler, Remington, Lapua.
 
mysticplayer said:
Yes, and no.

Yes, repeated firing will work harden the case head but that is already the toughest part of the case.

No, when a case is fired it expands and takes a set - assuming you don't size the base. After a couple of firings, that is pretty much done.

Ramping up the pressures at that point simply leads to the same stretching and likely leads to FASTER primer pocket loosening because elasticity is all but gone.
Jerry
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I'm not buyin it buddy.
None of the above makes any logical sense.

Yes, the case head is already the toughest part of the case? Well tough is a relative term... Can it not get tougher?

Ramping up the pressures at that point simply leads to the same stretching and likely leads to FASTER primer pocket loosening because elasticity is all but gone????.... Elastisity does not go away after work hardening it increases.

As the brass gets more work hardened it's spring back characteristics increase.
 
fclassguy said:
I'm not buyin it buddy.
None of the above makes any logical sense.
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Since 99% of precision shooters have abanded this board, vendors post anything they want and go unchallenged, therefore everything you read here must be true. Mods will be along shortly to admonish anyone who points out the error of vendor postings.

For fun go back and read the part about measuring case volume on fired cases as some sort of meaningful excercise. I have pointed out the futility of this to no avail. It keeps getting posted as gospel. Brass is elastic and takes on the shape of the chamber under firing and snaps back from the chamber walls once the pressure subsides. It is the only reason you can open the bolt! Measuring case volume on fired brass measures nothing. Weighing the cases is the only meaningful measure of volume, and even that is open errors.

One other thing, some brass can never be made competitive, no matter how much culling and prep one does. This is the reality from someone who doesn't sell brass.
 
To me elasticity is the ability to return to its orig shape after some stress has been applied.

When brass work hardens, it becomes more rigid thus less elastic

rpollock, I am sure you have done a wide range of testing for your competitive shooting. As have I.

If you feel measuring case volume directly doesn't work, weighing the cases is even more error prone. How important are the dimensions of the extractor groove?

But you assume they are identical in dimensions. May not be the case.

I see that you tend to negate info from any dealer or shooters outside your discipline cause you feel their info is always biased or wrong.

I think if you review what I have said, nothing is brand specific and I have not suggested any product better or worse. The tests works, they are repeatable and anyone can use them to prove or disprove what I am saying.

Many/most of my points actually were determined by shooters in your discipline.

If I were always 'selling' something, what could be better then to continue the mantra of buy Lapua brass, best brass in the world, only option out there. Buy NF scopes best scopes in the world, etc, etc.

Good for business don't you think since that is the 'right' answer?

But, I challenge each product on their own merit and sometimes, the 'best' doesn't quite work out.

I have weighed enough brass to have seen the points I put forth. I have looked through enough scopes to have some opinions of my own.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
To me elasticity is the ability to return to its orig shape after some stress has been applied.

When brass work hardens, it becomes more rigid thus less elastic

rpollock, I am sure you have done a wide range of testing for your competitive shooting. As have I.

If you feel measuring case volume directly doesn't work, weighing the cases is even more error prone. How important are the dimensions of the extractor groove?

But you assume they are identical in dimensions. May not be the case.

I see that you tend to negate info from any dealer or shooters outside your discipline cause you feel their info is always biased or wrong.

I think if you review what I have said, nothing is brand specific and I have not suggested any product better or worse. The tests works, they are repeatable and anyone can use them to prove or disprove what I am saying.

Many/most of my points actually were determined by shooters in your discipline.

If I were always 'selling' something, what could be better then to continue the mantra of buy Lapua brass, best brass in the world, only option out there. Buy NF scopes best scopes in the world, etc, etc.

Good for business don't you think since that is the 'right' answer?

But, I challenge each product on their own merit and sometimes, the 'best' doesn't quite work out.

I have weighed enough brass to have seen the points I put forth. I have looked through enough scopes to have some opinions of my own.

YMMV.

Jerry
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Jerry,

I don't even know where to begin with these posts like the one above. You assume so much about me, what you think I know, the discipline, what works, what doesn't etc. There is a whole world related to accuracy that you won't find from behind a keyboard. I'll say it again, you need to get out to some BR matches. You think because you read somewhere on the internet some little tidbit about BR, and then repeat it here, it must be true? It may not be.

For example I haven't seen or heard of anyone volume sorting brass using your methodology. Period. Know why? It has no merit. How can it, when the brass is not under firing pressure and it is not the same dimension as the chamber? The current reigning champion of all things BR doesn't volume sort brass, he doesn't even weight sort brass! He only has 3 times the Hall of of Fame points as the next closest guy, but what would he know? Granted this is in short range 100-300 yd BR. Some weight sort, but it may be a feelgood practice at short range, very hard to quantify.

See what I am talking about? And you want to talk about the extractor groove! Honestly, who cares about the extractor groove, except you? Don't you see a problem here?
 
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