Why no love for the Steiner scopes?
- Thread starter Pyd
- Start date
You have asked a reasonable question and here is my response regarding my personal lack of "Love" for Steiner. Again, this is my PERSONAL bias - since you asked.
A) have personally seen several Steiner bino's fail. One owned by a friend who was particularly careful (loving!) with his equipment. The plastic housings seemed to be the culprit. Nothing wrong with "good" synthetic housing -- I have a 10x,50 Swarovski SL that are tough as nails and brilliant to boot! That was not the case with Steiner. Nor was Steiner's collimation much to write home about. Viewing a straight Frost fence was an interesting exercise with several Steiner I viewed through. Don't believe me - do a search on the internet for Steiner binocular evaluations.
B) "Steiner's exclusive Color Adjusted Transmission (CAT) lens coating that enhances brown and red colors against foliated backgrounds" .. remember the "ruby" coloured coating that adorned Steiner binoculars for a few years? Supposed to let you see game better. Do you know anyone that actually owned then and felt they improved game detection? I spent some considerable time peering through these little "wonders" and concluded that all they did was make the image look unreal and ultimately annoy the viewer. Would probably explain why they aren't around any more. Wonder why Zeiss, Nikon, Swarovski, Leitz etc etc didn't employ similar gimmicks? marketing hype?
C) Do you remember Carl Wetzlar? An oriental manufacturer that employed a "germanic" name to imply German optical quality etc ...unfortunately the cheap plastic non adjustable straps on their bino's and bino cases (also made of plastic) gave away the real story. Or you could wait until the uncollimated optics gave you a headache, or the prism fell out of the cheap cement that was used to secure them in the housing rather than metal straps. Carl Wetzlar was a product also built/sold on marketing hype.
D) I mention Carl Wetzlar cause I think you will find that very little of Steiner product is actually made in Europe. They apparently have a large Chinese factory that produces many (or perhaps most) of their components. At one point at least one line of their scope production was managed by Burris. Outsourcing manufacturing to China (or Burris) certainly DOESNT automatically make the product poor!! BUT it turns on my alarm bells in a hurry! And like Carl Wetzlar - Steiner wont be the first company to use a germanic name to imply quality..marketing hype
E) So like lots of folks I am (personally) a little leery of companies I think rely too heavily on marketing hype - that is because I have been too close to exaggerated promotional claims for too long and I am now gun shy - although regrettably I am not completely immune and have been fooled many times.
So thats my personal bias regarding Steiner .. admittedly their products may improve and they may now be top tier! And I am happy for guys that get good value when they purchase a Steiner product!! BUT for this guy they got some ground to make up first.
(PS I've had Leica M cameras with their much vaunted quality and durability fail after a short time and need factory attention - so probably no one manufacturer is completely immune to screw ups fwiw)
When I first picked up both scopes (Leopold and Steiner) I did not consider warranty, been one of those lucky guys who never needed to have a scope fixed.
I was in the 1000 to 1200 dollar range.
The Steiner had a clearer picture, and when you are pulling scopes out of a cabinet, it is what jumps out at you.
The zoom on the Steiner was smaller in the same price range, but the clarity made up for it.
I am a fan of customer service, like everyone else, so it makes good sense that if a product isn't backed up, it isn't a product at all. And that, above everything is what I learned from this post.
Looks like if I want to make a good investment, and have it backed up, I am back to another 6500.
Thanks guys. that was some great information.
The new Nightforce in the same price range have appeal, but that is another topic.
I was in the 1000 to 1200 dollar range.
The Steiner had a clearer picture, and when you are pulling scopes out of a cabinet, it is what jumps out at you.
The zoom on the Steiner was smaller in the same price range, but the clarity made up for it.
I am a fan of customer service, like everyone else, so it makes good sense that if a product isn't backed up, it isn't a product at all. And that, above everything is what I learned from this post.
Looks like if I want to make a good investment, and have it backed up, I am back to another 6500.
Thanks guys. that was some great information.
The new Nightforce in the same price range have appeal, but that is another topic.
I respect the experiences and subsequent opinions members have with/of Steiners products. What I dont understand is why the new line of scopes is being judged against 40yr old porro prism binoculars the company manufactured decades ago? I also dont see how its relevant to compare the same 40+yr old bino design to offerings from Swaro, Zeiss, or whatever other top end euro optics makers have been mentioned by comparison. The military style porro's that many people are bashing may well be far inferior when compared to Swaro's, Leicas's etc. but they also are not a fair and direct comparison.
At one time Toyota and Nissan(Datsun) were held in low opinion. By some peoples logic the new Lexus LS must be a piece of crap because the Toyota Corolla they owned in 1972 had bad radio reception. Things change.
It was my conversation with Martin Noller (Steiner) at SHOT last year that convinced me to try their new 5-25 Military and I have been very impressed by it. It was my conversation to him this year that convinced me that Steiner is commited to establishing itself as a serious competitor in the high end Tactical optics market. They are very interested in customer feedback to help develop/improve their products and are commited to providing a high level of customer support and satisfaction. Case in point: this year they improved the clicks in the turrets of the "Military" line in response to customer feedback. When I commented to him how they were an improvement over the first gen turrets my scope has, he said that They would cover the cost of shipping and install the upgrade to my scope free of charge.
In my opinion Steiner should discontinue the majority of their ancient Porro prism binoculars. They are an archaic design that does nothing for them as far as establishing them as a progressive competitor in the optics market. They should focus on limited but new product lines with emphasis on quality at a slightly better price point than their established Euro competitors.
At one time Toyota and Nissan(Datsun) were held in low opinion. By some peoples logic the new Lexus LS must be a piece of crap because the Toyota Corolla they owned in 1972 had bad radio reception. Things change.
It was my conversation with Martin Noller (Steiner) at SHOT last year that convinced me to try their new 5-25 Military and I have been very impressed by it. It was my conversation to him this year that convinced me that Steiner is commited to establishing itself as a serious competitor in the high end Tactical optics market. They are very interested in customer feedback to help develop/improve their products and are commited to providing a high level of customer support and satisfaction. Case in point: this year they improved the clicks in the turrets of the "Military" line in response to customer feedback. When I commented to him how they were an improvement over the first gen turrets my scope has, he said that They would cover the cost of shipping and install the upgrade to my scope free of charge.
In my opinion Steiner should discontinue the majority of their ancient Porro prism binoculars. They are an archaic design that does nothing for them as far as establishing them as a progressive competitor in the optics market. They should focus on limited but new product lines with emphasis on quality at a slightly better price point than their established Euro competitors.
plainSight Solutions
Regular
Very well put. I'm the first to admit that I'm an optics snob, but a friend (who is a Canadian F-Class champion, very experienced builder, and has forgotten more than I'll ever know about optics, firearms, firearm components, reloading...you get the idea...) told me a while ago "Keep an open mind about all of this sh*t, because sh*t will change and you don't want to paint yourself into a corner." If you carry around paradigms and prejudge, you're simply making yourself ignorant.
I'm a proponent of the Burris Eliminator III. Do I endorse all of Burris' other products, or even most? Not at all. But the Eliminator is completely different than their other products and I would be causing myself (and my customers) a diservice if I didn't explore new products and carry what works. The same goes for Bushnell. My primary goal in going to SHOT this year was to convince myself not to carry the Bushnell Elite Tactical line. I failed, because Bushnell has produced scopes that are bloody fantastic for the money, and it would be an irresponsible business decision not to offer them to my customers. I mean *cough* the Bushnell Elite Tactical are junk! They're made of wood and recycled Coca-Cola bottles, with tissue-paper reticles and jello adjustment...for any other dealers considering them XD
The same obviously goes for Steiner. The best indicator of future performance is past performance - this is generally true. However it does not necessarily apply when a multi-million dollar company focuses its resources on producing an exceptional product (particularly where a military contract is concerned).
fair enough observation
I was not comparing their star test results or contrast/resolution against a test chart or even their flatness of field or resistance to flare .. the Steiner's I am speaking of had internal components that "FELL APART" for god sakes ... I have 35+plus year old set of Konica 8x,20 (among the VERY FIRST miniature roof prisms manufactured) that I still use that have withstood numerous trips to the arctic, Labrador, Europe etc that have never missed a beat. Incidentally when I mentioned the Swarovski SL I recognized at their extra cost they should be optically better than Steiner's - what is instructive is that they, like Steiner's then, were also porroprism housed in a synthetic frame .
Not by me - I drove a Datsun 510 which was far superior to the BMW 2002 of the same era - and much cheaper (I also have owned BMW's, Toyota's and Lexus so have some basis for comparison). The Toyota Corolla's (with rear wheel drive and a bulletproof 4cyl engine back then) where among the toughest Rally cars for a poor guy .. and embarrassed a lot of Saab owners. On the other hand - if you accused me of being biased against a new Yugo or Lada luxury car because of my experience 25 years ago -- you'd have me dead to rights!!
That is EXCELLENT and they are to be commended for that kind of support.
possibly but I like porroprism binos and have yet see a pair of roof prisms that approach the optical performance of the Nikon SE porroprisms or the Fuji top line porro's either for that matter. There's a reason why all the best spotting scopes (Questar excepted) are Porro as well.
Certainly we all want new companies to push the envelope on product quality and value!! It keeps the other companies on their toes. Nobody is better positioned to achieve this than an existing company with experience and infrastructure -- I look forward to hearing more about Steiner's success in moving those yardsticks...
(edit to add ... and maybe as long as Steiner is aware that there are pricks like me pissing in their corn flakes -- they'll work even harder to keep guys like you VERY HAPPY with the products they are selling you!)
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nowarningshot
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Not sure if plainsight was endorsing the Bushnell Elite tactical or panning it.
Anyways i don't have a dog in this fight, nor would i consider myself a expert on up end optics or a optics snob.
Just seems like many of these posts leave the question of the original poster behind. Instead, everything seems to deteriorate to the level of grown men kicking sand at each other and calling names. How does that help less knowledgeable members learn, or feel confident in posting questions??I dont think the OP asked for anyone to prove what they know about the scope they paid a kings ransom for, only about Steiner.
A little politeness and courtesy goes a long way.
Anyways i don't have a dog in this fight, nor would i consider myself a expert on up end optics or a optics snob.
Just seems like many of these posts leave the question of the original poster behind. Instead, everything seems to deteriorate to the level of grown men kicking sand at each other and calling names. How does that help less knowledgeable members learn, or feel confident in posting questions??I dont think the OP asked for anyone to prove what they know about the scope they paid a kings ransom for, only about Steiner.
A little politeness and courtesy goes a long way.
plainSight Solutions
Regular
You bring up some very good points. To clarify, I am very positive on the Bushnell Tactical Elite line - I was attempting to be sarcastic and humerous with my "made of wood" statement.
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
Precisely.
gunrunner8
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kamloops, B.C.
That's all so very true.
I had two Tasc....(grrrrr) Stainer 8x30mm "military standard" binos failed. First were bought used in mid 80' at the gun show and after 7-8 years or so they got dimmer and dimmer and lost their sharpness to the point of being useless. I just retired them after being informed that the warranty was good only for 10 years. Second pair I bought brand new ($350-30years warranty) in early 2000' and they went bad even faster I would swear that plastic lenses were used as well. Warranty service were nil as well.
CAT lens coating is crap, long on promes and short on delivery, "military" standard my a**. That company is running on lots of hot air and hype. Please beware!
You are right AP the majority of hunters don't realise that porro prism is superior way of building optical instruments over roof prism way, that's why I am partial to porro prism binos, waterproof ones, rubber armored, with wide field of view great depth perception and reasonably light weight. Currently my porro 7x35mm Nikon Extremes (second pair bought on sale at WSS for $130) will beat those Tasc....(ups! I did it again...) Stainers in every department with great warranty service!
mightyhunter
CGN Regular
- Location
- Edmonton, Alberta
try spend a little more money. 30 years...
Father Hood
Regular
- Location
- Lower Mainland, BC
Interesting thread..and meaningful comment above for me. I am currently shopping for a higher end scope that will serve many functions and be moved from project to project for testing and longer range shooting. Starting with the well known top of line choices I have noticed how the prices are all hitting the $4K and above mark. I was quite interested in the new Tangent theta (developed from Premiere Reticle) not only for its great review but also because it is now made in Canada which would be great. But at a $4200 price tag, I was rather disappointed.
It just happens that I am now currently debating between the Steiner Military 5-25x56 and the new Vortex gen ii 4.5-27 HD Razor. So I was glad to read the comments above. Not sure if the Razor is on the shelves yet but would sure like to find these two scopes to view them in person.
Appreciate all the great information.
Is this a price you have confirmed "canada" will be paying? Or is that the Orkan price the Americans have announced on them (off snipershide) ?? I myself have my fingers crossed "we" will have slightly lesser prices "Canadian" Similar to the differences seen with Zeiss and others* ...generally speaking, through Canadian vendors many prices tend to be $200-300 cheaper than through eurooptic etc etc across the border/never understood why.. but lucky for us
I'm hoping TT will be the same.. seriously considering one once more is known and concrete numbers are released (here)
Father Hood
Regular
- Location
- Lower Mainland, BC
Hey whiskey
I believe I have come across this price in more than one place but here it is quoted from our forums under tbe SHOT SHOW 2014 section.
"The detailed spec could be easily found on their websites. Reticles in both Mrad and MoA are offered. The MSRP of the 3X-15X model is 3,697 USD, and the MSRP of the 5X-25X model is 4,250 USD. "
I guess we will wait and see if there is a better Canadian price or not.
I believe I have come across this price in more than one place but here it is quoted from our forums under tbe SHOT SHOW 2014 section.
"The detailed spec could be easily found on their websites. Reticles in both Mrad and MoA are offered. The MSRP of the 3X-15X model is 3,697 USD, and the MSRP of the 5X-25X model is 4,250 USD. "
I guess we will wait and see if there is a better Canadian price or not.
plainSight Solutions
Regular
$4,250 for the TT-P 5-25x56mm is the MAP price - concrete/final. Here is the full list of TT prices (I've been a Premier dealer for a couple of years, and have some TT's on order):
Offical MAP prices for the Tangent Theta line (from dealer listing):
Model TT315M Professional Marksman 3-15x50mm, illuminated with Gen 2 XR reticle (or MoA calibrated reticle), in mil/mil or 1/4 MoA, 30mm tube, 40MoA of adjustment:
$2,998
Model TT315P Professional Marksman 3-15x50mm, illuminated with Gen 2 XR reticle (or MoA calibrated reticle), in mil/mil or 1/4 MoA, 34mm tube, 96MoA of adjustment, tool-less re-zero:
$3,697
Model TT525P Professional Marksman 5-25x56mm, illuminated with Gen 2 XR reticle (or MoA calibrated reticle), in mil/mil or 1/4 MoA, 34mm tube, 96MoA of adjustment, tool-less re-zero:
$4,250
There remains a limited quantity of the Premier Heritage 5-25x56mm, illuminated with the MoA calibrated reticle, with 1/4 MoA adjustment, 34mm tube:
$3,521
Delivery on the new TT scopes is scheduled for Q2 2014. MAP does not necessarily reflect the end price that dealers may sell at, however group-buys, etc... are not permitted by Tangent Theta or it's parent company Armament Technology.
Father Hood
Regular
- Location
- Lower Mainland, BC
There it is.
Thanks plainSight
Thanks plainSight
Re Steiner - over the years I've seen a few and thought them to be a very good, upper end, product and my thoughts were confirmed when I looked pretty close when at SHOT last year. I would personally not choose this brand though due to a couple of reasons: limited support and limited selection ( in what I would likely buy ).
eberlestock
Member
- Location
- Kamloops. BC
I have the C5 10x42 predators. They have been great. Recently an eye cup came off after I hurriedly muscled it out. It comes off easily now so I called steiner to try to order another one. They told me to ship them the binos and they would do a full rebuild at no charge. Seems pretty fair to me.
Father Hood
Regular
- Location
- Lower Mainland, BC
Yes Tomochan, that is one concern I have as well with Steiner. . And is how an earlier post states them..."unrepresented". It also makes the Vortex brand the seemingly opposite with their representation in Canada and their warranty. But good to hear that others have been looked after by them.
Never pass up a bathroom, never waste a hard-on, and never trust a fart; (none taken)
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