Why Not? and his RL17 loads....

9.3mauser said:
More velocity doesn't necessarily translate into more penetration... depending on the bullet it could actually mean less. If we're talking ranges inside 300 yds, there isn't much a 180 gr. bullet @ 2700 fps from a .30-06 can't reliably take care of.
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I am familiar with those ideas. With bullets monolithics and Partitions I think you will get more penetration and tissue damage with more velocity. Of course there is a tipping point where due to less frontal area of a partially expanded or non-expanded bullet it will penetrate more. But it will also be disrupting less tissue. I am pretty sure that shedding the "extra" velocity inside an animal certainly won't do the beast any favours. Again, keep in mind I am using bullets that will not fall apart.

Also I have no idea whether on a sharp 1/4 away (or too) bull moose it will make any difference whether the .308" 180gr bullet hits with 2200fps or 2500fps.

Much of this is just idle banter anyways and I have no intention or desire to convince anyone that my way is the best. I believe that everyone will do better if they have confidence in themselves and their equipment. To some that will be a .45/70 with 420gr hard cast bullets, others will use a .257 Wby with a 100gr TSX at +3500 fps and many will fall somewhere in between.
 
Listening to some of you guys sounds like I could use a better range finder, its a 10 year old nikkon 800 can't pick little stuff out at these ranges like your higher end ones do
 
1899 said:
in .308 Win convinced me, quite some time ago, to buy a pound of the stuff. Just in case. I figured that since it worked so well in the .308, it ought to work fairly well in the .30-06 with heavier bullets too - especially given the .30-06's like for H4350 and IMR4350.

I also needed a bunch of "ready to go with little testing" ammo, so I loaded some 60.0gr of H4831SC under a 180 grain Partition.

There isn't much info out there on RL17 plus the .30-06, so I did some figuring based on H4350, IMR4350 and Barnes 180gr TSX data. I also considered SAAMI's relatively low pressure limits on the .30-06. The 175gr LRX is obviously a bit lighter, plus it has one less groove. I have some data that was pressure tested (found on the internet so who knows?) with 180gr TSX and RL17, but that was with Lapua brass and I had R-P brass.

I decided to give 55.5gr and 56.0gr a try.

The 180 Partitions shot well, printing 3 shot groups in the 0.625" range. More than "good enough". The Oehler 35P said the velocities were hovering around 2630 fps. A bit slow, but hardly an issue. Interestingly the primers were flatening but there was no ejector mark and the bolt lift was very easy. That was probably the quickest and easiest 'load developement" ever!

So I grab the 175 LRX and 55.5gr RL17 load. I shoot and whoa...very obviously heavier recoil. I don't see a hole on the target. Darn. I look at the read-out.... 2990fps. Holy smokes. I lift the bolt - very easy and not a hint of sticking. The primer is flattened a bit, just like with the 4831SC, and no ejector mark. Was it a erroneous reading? I hold at the bottom of the target, which is a haywire way of doing things and shoot again - 2929 fps and the bullet hole is 5" higher than the point of aim. The third shot is 3013fps and the hole is 1" from the second shot.

The mean velocity was 2977fps. For those of you who enjoy energy numbers, that is 3444 ft-lb of energy at the muzzle. I decided against trying the 56.0gr load. Velocity wise this is, imo, very high and even though there were no signs such as sticky bolt or ejector mark I decided to let it be. Of course I can't say much about accuracy for the obvious reasons noted above.

At any rate I am going to drop down to 54.0gr, 54.5gr and 55.0gr and take another look at this combo as it does appear to have some promise. I am pretty confident I can work up an accurate +2900 fps load with this powder and bullet. That is, imo, amazing performance for a .30-06. And out of a 22.5" barrel!

I was using R-P brass, F210 primers and COAL was 3.370"


Rifle is an Ithaca LSA 65 (Tikka) which has a 1:10 twist 22.5" barrel. Altitude is approximately 2200' ASL and it was a very warm day at 29 C .


Just for information's sake, my friend's .300 Wby + 84gr of RL25 + 200gr Partition out of a 24" barrel was averaging 2930 fps today.
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You have one of the best Chrony's ever made Oehler 35 in my mind, have checked other Chrony's against my 35 and some are just way out.
But I have a hard time believing 3000+FPS With 55gr od RL 17 on Alliant Powders Reloading loads

30-06 Springfield Speer 168 gr BTHP Winchester 3.295 22 Fed 210 Reloder 17 56 2,850

They claim 56gr with a 168gr 22} barrel = 2850fps
Lighter bullet a little more powder maybe time to get 35 checked ?
 
manitou210 said:
You have one of the best Chrony's ever made Oehler 35 in my mind, have checked other Chrony's against my 35 and some are just way out.
But I have a hard time believing 3000+FPS With 55gr od RL 17 on Alliant Powders Reloading loads

30-06 Springfield Speer 168 gr BTHP Winchester 3.295 22 Fed 210 Reloder 17 56 2,850

They claim 56gr with a 168gr 22} barrel = 2850fps
Lighter bullet a little more powder maybe time to get 35 checked ?
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No need to get it checked - right before 60.0gr of H4831SC + 180gr Partitions were giving 2630 fps and right after a .300 Wby with 84.0gr of RL25 + 200gr Partitions gave 2930 fps. Both of those numbers are right where they should be - maybe even a touch slow. I have also used it with my 7mm RM and then confirmed trajectory out to 500 yards using correct BC. I am very confident that it is working well.

But I agree - it is incredible velocity, which is why I posted it. Work some loads up and see what happens. BTW, I have some printouts from pressure tested data with RL17 + 180gr Partitions that gave over 2900 fps. Mind you that was at 65,000 PSI.
 
rem338win said:
Im game Ted. Unless you want to add more rules.
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I would suggest shooting under real world conditions. That is, where grass or willows might obscure the target when prone forcing a sitting or kneeling position or when prone the angle is extremely steep, on a day with rapidly changing light conditions, and a gusty breeze. Those are more typical of North American fall hunting conditions than the days that are clear and calm. I've been playing around with Kenyathelon type of shooting the last while, so I think I'm up to Ted's challenge, but again, without a range finder, its a sucker's bet. If we held such a competition here in July, the skeeters would provide a home team advantage, any time the wind dropped below 60 K.
 
I tried Re17 in two much smaller cartidges (6.5X55 and 7X57), but saw very similar results in those two cartridges:

- Re17 uses about 2-4% less powder than H4350 for similar velocities; and
- Re17 uses about 10% less powder than H4831 for similar velocities.

Not much to go on, but I've seen it as slightly faster than H4350, closer to H414 the few times I've tried it.
 
I found out about RL 17 through Swiss rifle threads. I will be using it exclusively in my K31 with 168gr HPBTs. I have had excellent results in my reloads. O/P good work and thanks for posting your results.
 
Why not? said:
You beat me to it. That's it exactly. Furthermore, I am convinced that at least 95% of hunters cannot reliably hit game in the vitals at ranges beyond 300 yd. More than likely the reliable range is 250.

For those who think this is nonsense, I have a standing offer for anyone who wants to try. You pay $5 per shot at balloons or paper plates set at random, unknown, distances between 350 and 550 yd, and I will pay you $20 for every one you hit from field positions. The money goes to buy ammo for kids learning to shoot.

Everybody wins, and I am still looking for someone to take me to the cleaners. :)

Ted
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Well said. I go to the range and these guys are all ined up on the bench with sleds and rests (I am one of those when trying to figure out the accuracy of a load or a rifle). For most, it is then off to the bush as they are now true snipers - if you know what I mean. I know from experience that my accuracy will certainly be different from the benchrest than a prone, sitting or a standing position in the field. I will rarely take a shot from a standing position at anything greater than about 150 to 200 yards, even using a tree or something, because my shots will be too wide for my liking. I'm getting better though and prefer to stand, sit or go prone at the range once my loads/rifle combination are optimized.

I always get a bit of a chuckle with some of them when they approach me to give me all sorts of advice when they see my wider 2", 3" or 4" groups to their near cloverleafs from their rests.
 
Some here it seems can't differenciate between rifle accuracy and shooter accuracy. I use sleds and bags and what have you when checking loads and rifles, because I'M CHECKING LOADS AND RIFLES. I shoot standing, sitting, elbows rested, against a pole etc, when checking ME. I like to know that my rifle shoots the same POI from my more used hunting positions as it does from the bags. I too have loosened my guidelines for hunting accuracy over the years, I will actually hunt with a rifle that only does 1" at 100 mtrs for 4 shots.
As much as it pains me, I too have to agree with Gatehouse on RL 17, it gives amazing velocities in the rifles and cartridges I've tried it in but only one rifle cartridge combo gives acceptable accuracy, and I've tried it in probably 15 different rifles and cartridges.
I had not heard of Ted's challenge before or I would have taken him up on it, using my 257 Wby sighted at 350 mtrs and not knowing the range even, I believe I could have cleaned the course. However my rifles are all moved to BC now so I won't have the opportunity (or embarassment) to test it out.
 
One of my sons has a Savage 10 heavy barrel with 24" barrel and factory brake in 308,...with Rel 17 it pushes the 175 Match King to near 2800 and shoots ragged holes at 200 meters.

A great powder,...and I just scored three pounds last week...:)
 
c-fbmi said:
Some here it seems can't differenciate between rifle accuracy and shooter accuracy. I use sleds and bags and what have you when checking loads and rifles, because I'M CHECKING LOADS AND RIFLES. I shoot standing, sitting, elbows rested, against a pole etc, when checking ME. I like to know that my rifle shoots the same POI from my more used hunting positions as it does from the bags. I too have loosened my guidelines for hunting accuracy over the years, I will actually hunt with a rifle that only does 1" at 100 mtrs for 4 shots.
As much as it pains me, I too have to agree with Gatehouse on RL 17, it gives amazing velocities in the rifles and cartridges I've tried it in but only one rifle cartridge combo gives acceptable accuracy, and I've tried it in probably 15 different rifles and cartridges.
I had not heard of Ted's challenge before or I would have taken him up on it, using my 257 Wby sighted at 350 mtrs and not knowing the range even, I believe I could have cleaned the course. However my rifles are all moved to BC now so I won't have the opportunity (or embarassment) to test it out.
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All of em??!!
 
I've got some more loads done and I am going to the range soon, so I will report back regarding accuracy. The pressure test data that I had downloaded from somewhere is from Daniel Kocur who, if anything on the intraweb is to be believed, works for ADI. His testing gave the following results:

200gr Partition @ 2703fps @ 61,900 PSI
180 Partition @ 2856 fps @ 60,100 PSI (and 2924fps @ 64,400 PSI)
180 E-Tip @ 2874 @ 65,100 PSI

Note those are all above SAAMI pressures for the .30-06 (60,000 PSI) but right in line for the .270 Win (65,000 PSI).
 
I got several good groups at 450 yards with RL17 and SMK bullets in my 300WSM but I also got enough very mediocre groups to make me not trust it, too. In the 375 Ruger it gave astounding velocity, enough that it made me stop working up the load even though there were no pressure signs.

I don't see any need to run on the ragged edge, wonder powder or not.
 
There is some pitfalls using RL 17 2 very good F class shooters in Ottawa where using it in there 284 win with 32" barrels speed was good but they both dropped Rl17 and went back to H4831
in the heat last summer the blew primers, and the other problem Rl 17 eats the throats much quicker than other non double base powders like Rl17
manitou
 
Andy said:
I tried Re17 in two much smaller cartidges (6.5X55 and 7X57), but saw very similar results in those two cartridges:

- Re17 uses about 2-4% less powder than H4350 for similar velocities; and
- Re17 uses about 10% less powder than H4831 for similar velocities.

Not much to go on, but I've seen it as slightly faster than H4350, closer to H414 the few times I've tried it.
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H414 is somewhat slower than RL-17 in my 9.3 X 62, though it's a very good powder in the 9 - 3 with the heavies. But my vote is for RL-17 for the 286 Nos. Partitions. RL-15 doesn't come close in MV.

Ted should give it a try in his 9.3s... an unbiased one that is <smile>.

I'm getting at least 100 fps more MV with RL-17 than with RL-15, with better psi signals.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca
 
I will, Bob, but have been busy working with Accurate 2460. It is showing plenty of promise so far with the new Matrix round nose bullets in the 9.3X57 and '62. The accuracy has been very fine, and velocities are right up there with 270 gr bullets.

Expansion tests in water demonstrate over 90% weight retention.



Will be reporting back on performance on game after this hunt. :)
Ted
 
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