Why so few Mosin 91's vs 91/30s?

gmtinker said:
Hello, I know this post is a couple years old but I have a 1904 M91 Cossack rifle. What is the major difference between the Cossack version and the "Standard" M91? And yes, as SVT1940 says, it is REALLY long with the bayonet on it. My Grandfather brought it home after his service in WWII in the Pacific Fleet, he said he traded a Japanese officer's sword to an Australian and he figured he got ripped off. He thought it was a "Russian Remington," but it was not one of the Remington-contracted ones, but from Izhevsk. I've had it for 10 years but never fired it - and won't until I get a gunsmith I know to inspect it.

I would attach pictured, but haven't figured out how yet. Apparently these things are getting harder to come by, which is a pain because it is complete and in not-too-bad shape except for the missing detents on the ramping rear sight (slide is still there but won't lock in elevation). If anyone knows where an authentic rear M91 sight is, I would like to fix it.

So what is the major difference in the Cossack variant?

(and if anyone knows how to post pictures from one's hard drive, let me know and I'll put pics up)

Thanks!
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I really enjoyed reading that old thread.
 
gmtinker said:
So what is the major difference in the Cossack variant?

Thanks!
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M91 Cossack and M91 Dragoon rifles are both the same length at around 48.5" long, which is shorter than the M91 Infantry rifle which is 51.5" long. The stocking up and barrel band configurations are different between the Infantry and Dragoon/Cossack rifles.

The difference between a Dragoon and Cossack rifle is the Dragoon is sighted from the factory for use with a bayonet, whereas the Cossack is not (Cossack units weren't issued bayonets). Dragoon rear sights are marked 'Kav", and Cossack rear sights are marked 'Ka3' as is the barrel.

http://www.7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinM91R.htm

http://www.7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinM91D.htm
 
Ok, that's making a little more sense - I guess the bayonet wasn't original on this one, but it does fit on like a glove, with a twisting loop to lock in place around the front sight. Even being a few inches shorter than the Infantry unit, this thing is a long, skinny javelin with the bayonet on it. Thanks for the information, I didn't know that the Cossack variants were not issued bayonets.
 
Thanks, fernleaf. Pic's worth a thousand words, trying to explain something. At least this one has been in either a closet or safe since the war, but there are a few rust spots starting on the byonet I have to clean up.

Thanks again.
 
Huh, talk about a zombie thread...

My 2 cents on why so few '91s:

1. Many were updated to 91/30 configuration (as has already been mentioned).
2. Vast numbers were lost/destroyed in WWI
3. Large numbers were lost/wrecked during the revolutionary period. It was the rifle for all sides to use, and used and abused it was.
4. Russian Bubba Syndrome: AKA the "Obrez"

#4 probably doesn't get enough credit for its historical significance. Even before the revolutionary period, large chunks of Russia were pretty lawless. Handguns were extremely difficult to source, but the Mosin '91 was fairly common. The natural result of this was a lot of Obrez conversions. And I think a lot more than anyone has fully accounted for.

White Russian officers were known to carry Obrez as a desperation backup gun, which is indicative of just how widespread they were. They were a favourite among bandits, anarchists, revolutionaries, and farmer Ivan who wanted to keep something relatively concealable to protect himself from bandits, anarchists, and revolutionaries.

Anyway, I don't have much real info to back that supposition up with, just a few hints from a couple of things I've read and heard that seem to add up. But as with all things historical, just because it adds up, doesn't necessarily mean it happened.

Some Obrez reading, if you're interested:

guns.com
ForgottenWeapons

And of course, a video of some HillBilly firing off his Bubba Obrez:

 
Yeah i have a fin m91 built on a 1894 challerault receiver, 1927 tikka barrel. Great rifle... and now i see how old the thread is lol
 
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JP can chime in on this but I believe that alot of the last big import of M91'S came to Canada from Finland some time ago..I have seen very few M91 rifles here that are not (SA) marked denoting Finnish ownership...Do they have any left in Russia ??. Who knows..? If there is , the numbers are likely very small past what resides in museums..
 
Claven2 said:
My take:

The mosins we see have come out of Ukraine for the most part. Ukraine's Mosins were largely those rifles that were in that area during WW2 demobilization.

In WW2, the left over M91's would have been in central Russian away from the fighting with 2nd line troops to free up M91/30's for the Western and Japanese fronts.

In all likelihood there are a goodly number of intact M91's somewhere in Russia, but in general, very few are exported b/c the US market is closed to Russian arms dealers.
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My guess was that older small arms were used in Far East/Siberia regions up to 1945,warehoused until Korean War and shipped there as "aid".

That would explain presence of Nagant revolvers,1910 Maxims and elderly artillery pieces in pictures from early part of that war.


BTW-I have 1895 or 98 (unclear number) M91 with 1941 VKT counterbored barrel.One of the most accurate rifle I have and very predictable POI regardless of weather.
Awesome shooter
 
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