- Location
- East of Home, West of the Rest
Which are only ever as accurate as the sniper shooting them.
Why the IDF Chose the TAVOR® Over the M4
- Thread starter North_Sylva
- Start date
Which are only ever as accurate as the sniper shooting them.
- Location
- Richmond, BC
So, are they sub-moa rifles in the right hands? What are we talking, 3/4 moa, 1/2 moa, with match/hand loads?
I had one for about a week before flipping it so I never had a chance to try it out. I'm going to cry if it can outshoot my bolt guns.
Lungorthin
Regular
- Location
- Calgary, AB
I was able to hit a golf ball at 115 yards multiple times with a 6x scope. That's just a little over 1.5 moa
The two I've shot averaged 3.5" groups with various brands of ammo. Every AR I've owned has been better. The fact that there is a booming aftermarket for expensive trigger mods is also telling. I do really want to like this rifle... Show me that they group 1.5-2" consistently with quality (but not bespoke) ammo and I'll buy a couple.
I get to see many new or little experience shooters use the AR15 and the Tavor (and plenty of other guns too)
Everyone picks up the AR and knows what to do and it feels pretty natural to them. The Tavor is 50/50 in an extreme way. I'm sure it mostly has to do with the trigger, but the ergonomics of it can also be a challenge to new shooters.
The ones that adapt to it without problem will have better accuracy than with the AR15, shooting 6" and 8" gongs at 100m without problem. The AR is certainly capable of that but it seems those that find the Tavor good to shoot, shoot it better. The ones that don't adapt to it will struggle with hitting a 16x16 gong at 50m, that they were easily hitting with the AR. And I can tell it's the trigger because they end up yanking it.
I clean both AR's and Tavor after about 1000 rounds. Both work fine dirty. It gets dusty at the range when the wind picks up, but not like Israel so I can't compare that. Both are easy to dissemble and clean.
I can shoot the Tavor well if I pay attention to the trigger. I think they are both capable of the same accuracy, from my experience, but the AR seems more intuitive from a beginners standpoint. If I was to go into a fight, I would still pick the AR, but if I took a Tavor course and really learned to shoot it, I may change my mind.
Everyone picks up the AR and knows what to do and it feels pretty natural to them. The Tavor is 50/50 in an extreme way. I'm sure it mostly has to do with the trigger, but the ergonomics of it can also be a challenge to new shooters.
The ones that adapt to it without problem will have better accuracy than with the AR15, shooting 6" and 8" gongs at 100m without problem. The AR is certainly capable of that but it seems those that find the Tavor good to shoot, shoot it better. The ones that don't adapt to it will struggle with hitting a 16x16 gong at 50m, that they were easily hitting with the AR. And I can tell it's the trigger because they end up yanking it.
I clean both AR's and Tavor after about 1000 rounds. Both work fine dirty. It gets dusty at the range when the wind picks up, but not like Israel so I can't compare that. Both are easy to dissemble and clean.
I can shoot the Tavor well if I pay attention to the trigger. I think they are both capable of the same accuracy, from my experience, but the AR seems more intuitive from a beginners standpoint. If I was to go into a fight, I would still pick the AR, but if I took a Tavor course and really learned to shoot it, I may change my mind.
Potato boy
Regular
- Location
- North of the mountain
1.5 off bags with 1-4 leup---can take a beating--i personally love em but everyone has their cult followings-well designed and compact---would love ars im sure but then the restricted crap here makes them very limited-both great guns-cheers
- I've had a Tavor for about a year now and put about 2750 rounds through it, including the Tavor 1on1 Course with Lovie that was travelling across Canada, so I really like my Tavor, I would definitely recommend it over the Norinco Type97 just for the higher quality feel alone, and definitely consider it a tough as nails end of days type rifle, yes I know how much it cost ) I admit after growing up on 'not bull pups', it did take some practice to get comfortable with it (if you haven't shot bull pups before(imo). .. but after 50 rounds or so you'll get the hang of it and can start practicing those mag reloads that feel so awkward at first.
For optics - I've shot it with both a 1-4 X24, and a 1X red dot (the Vortex Viper PST and Spitfire) on top. I can say it's much more fun with the 1x, playing CQB, 3-gun or any style of 50 - 150m gong/ plinker challenge action. Out to 100- 150 meters it's a serious tac driver, I really cant complain. And once I started shooting my hand loads through it, it just never disappoints, I can bang a 8" gong at 75m all day long with the 1X. And with the 1-4X 24, it shoots sub MOA groups at 100m, outdoors, on benchrest. But again for me it's not really that fun to do that I have other rifles for resting etc.
Cons - The trigger pack takes a ton of criticism and I can understand why, it's 8 something to 9.2+ lbs stock pull depending on your rifle, I have seen stock at over 11lbs. But even with that on a 30-40 m range the accuracy is just deadly. The trigger doesn't affect target acquisition and reset as much as some first timers would like to complain about. It is a stiff trigger with a longer pull no doubt, but it is a battle rifle not a bench unit. You'll have to get used to it or upgrade, I'm not really sure what the X95 has but I heard it's improved.
And for those that can afford it, for the $435 Gieselle.. well all the power to ya man... I can't put a ton of money into my Tavor as I'm still paying off the Visa from buying the Tavor.
Reliability - In shooting 2500+ rounds, I started to have repeated issues with failure to pick, and jammed shells, and yes I tried many different mags. What I eventually discovered was my gas system was so fouled I wasn't getting enough power to complete a full battery. This required a complete tear down including barrel and cleaning everything. It was discovered I was getting a gas leak on the receiver/ barrel interface which is a little unsettling, so I was losing power there. So yeah, it was polluted. Since after the cleaning, it hasn't had any issues, none actually. It shoots like brand new again with no fails over 200 rounds.
- And I know about the Red Deer Shooting center Tavor that went 100,000 plus rounds with only a minor spring issue, but that isn't my gun.
- Ammo - The Tavor is a Nato 5.56 rifle. I have not however shot more than 20 rounds of 5.56 through it. I shoot basic .223, 55gr FMJ. I've tried a bunch of different brands and basically settled on the Federal american eagle for stock range rounds, seen as how it's readily available. Before that I went through a pile of Atlanta Arms re-man... (accuracy was fair to medium for me with that Odd flyer that I swear wasn't my fault?). I now basically shoot only my hand loads of 55gr FMJ Hornday .223 bullets, with 26-27.5 gr of Hodgdon CFE223. I get much more consistency over 15-20 shots with hand loads. But again for accuracy, I can bench rest the Tavor and smack the 250m IPSC gong with only the 1X. (Lovie would say a real man can do it with Irons but ammo is too expensive for me to miss that many shots). 100m is totally acceptable on the stock irons though, no issues there in hitting the gong with some steadfast determination.
Handling - I always tend to rave about the Tavor handling to anyone who asks. It's something you'll notice right away if you pick one up, especially if you primarily shoot lightweight AR's. With the bullpup design the rifle feels more connected to your body. By that I mean the center of gravity of the rifle really feels planted in your shoulder, the BCG, buffer spring etc are all right near the most rear of the gun, much more than an AR, this creates less forces as you turn or swing your body with the rifle close to your body. As opposed to an AR with the extra 8-10 inches of stock that pushes the bulk of the guns mass forward of you) ,,, it feels like a very fast weapon, and I'm sure in the hands and any trained IDF soldier it's a force to be reckoned with . With the Tavor the gun turns where you look, it's a fantastic feeling that is different than my AR which is just longer out front with a more forward mass to control.
I would recommend the Tavor for somebody who wants a Non-restricted, very high quality .223 semi-auto sporting or SHTF gun. But would I get the new Tavor X-95 ? .. at this point probably not unless I had the cash to spare or sold my current Tavor for a trade in. The Tavor is kind of a Niche gun, I know it's non restricted which is a great selling feature in Canada, but I'll probably keep it locked up in the SHTF safe for now and try not to shoot the piss out it's barrel.
That's my rant. I love my Tavor it's a great center piece on the wall and always gets attention at the range, but yes I definitely went through a range day where it wasn't working so well. But a full tear down seemed to fix that.
Cheers
For optics - I've shot it with both a 1-4 X24, and a 1X red dot (the Vortex Viper PST and Spitfire) on top. I can say it's much more fun with the 1x, playing CQB, 3-gun or any style of 50 - 150m gong/ plinker challenge action. Out to 100- 150 meters it's a serious tac driver, I really cant complain. And once I started shooting my hand loads through it, it just never disappoints, I can bang a 8" gong at 75m all day long with the 1X. And with the 1-4X 24, it shoots sub MOA groups at 100m, outdoors, on benchrest. But again for me it's not really that fun to do that I have other rifles for resting etc.
Cons - The trigger pack takes a ton of criticism and I can understand why, it's 8 something to 9.2+ lbs stock pull depending on your rifle, I have seen stock at over 11lbs. But even with that on a 30-40 m range the accuracy is just deadly. The trigger doesn't affect target acquisition and reset as much as some first timers would like to complain about. It is a stiff trigger with a longer pull no doubt, but it is a battle rifle not a bench unit. You'll have to get used to it or upgrade, I'm not really sure what the X95 has but I heard it's improved.
And for those that can afford it, for the $435 Gieselle.. well all the power to ya man... I can't put a ton of money into my Tavor as I'm still paying off the Visa from buying the Tavor.
Reliability - In shooting 2500+ rounds, I started to have repeated issues with failure to pick, and jammed shells, and yes I tried many different mags. What I eventually discovered was my gas system was so fouled I wasn't getting enough power to complete a full battery. This required a complete tear down including barrel and cleaning everything. It was discovered I was getting a gas leak on the receiver/ barrel interface which is a little unsettling, so I was losing power there. So yeah, it was polluted. Since after the cleaning, it hasn't had any issues, none actually. It shoots like brand new again with no fails over 200 rounds.
- And I know about the Red Deer Shooting center Tavor that went 100,000 plus rounds with only a minor spring issue, but that isn't my gun.
- Ammo - The Tavor is a Nato 5.56 rifle. I have not however shot more than 20 rounds of 5.56 through it. I shoot basic .223, 55gr FMJ. I've tried a bunch of different brands and basically settled on the Federal american eagle for stock range rounds, seen as how it's readily available. Before that I went through a pile of Atlanta Arms re-man... (accuracy was fair to medium for me with that Odd flyer that I swear wasn't my fault?). I now basically shoot only my hand loads of 55gr FMJ Hornday .223 bullets, with 26-27.5 gr of Hodgdon CFE223. I get much more consistency over 15-20 shots with hand loads. But again for accuracy, I can bench rest the Tavor and smack the 250m IPSC gong with only the 1X. (Lovie would say a real man can do it with Irons but ammo is too expensive for me to miss that many shots). 100m is totally acceptable on the stock irons though, no issues there in hitting the gong with some steadfast determination.
Handling - I always tend to rave about the Tavor handling to anyone who asks. It's something you'll notice right away if you pick one up, especially if you primarily shoot lightweight AR's. With the bullpup design the rifle feels more connected to your body. By that I mean the center of gravity of the rifle really feels planted in your shoulder, the BCG, buffer spring etc are all right near the most rear of the gun, much more than an AR, this creates less forces as you turn or swing your body with the rifle close to your body. As opposed to an AR with the extra 8-10 inches of stock that pushes the bulk of the guns mass forward of you) ,,, it feels like a very fast weapon, and I'm sure in the hands and any trained IDF soldier it's a force to be reckoned with . With the Tavor the gun turns where you look, it's a fantastic feeling that is different than my AR which is just longer out front with a more forward mass to control.
I would recommend the Tavor for somebody who wants a Non-restricted, very high quality .223 semi-auto sporting or SHTF gun. But would I get the new Tavor X-95 ? .. at this point probably not unless I had the cash to spare or sold my current Tavor for a trade in. The Tavor is kind of a Niche gun, I know it's non restricted which is a great selling feature in Canada, but I'll probably keep it locked up in the SHTF safe for now and try not to shoot the piss out it's barrel.
That's my rant. I love my Tavor it's a great center piece on the wall and always gets attention at the range, but yes I definitely went through a range day where it wasn't working so well. But a full tear down seemed to fix that.
Cheers
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After taking the Zahal Tavor courses and really learning a proper battery of arms for the Tavor, I'm pretty sure I'll be selling my AR-15 soon. I like my little 10.5" BBL SBR AR but with the stock in the position I find comfortable, it's still longer than my Tavor. And the Tavor is Non-Restricted and running an 18.5" BBL which really helps get that .223/5.56x45 cartridge to it's best potential.
I'm not trying to make either gun into a sub-MOA marksman or precision rifle, and I'm sure that my own inadequacies as a shooter influence my group sizes more than the guns themselves. I seem to find both the guns to be of similar accuracy at the same ranges. But that's a hard statement to make definitively, and if true, actually speaks volumes considering the differences in BBL.
I can reach out and hit a 10" gong consistently at 300 meters with unmagnified red dots on both guns, and that's good enough for me.
I'm not trying to make either gun into a sub-MOA marksman or precision rifle, and I'm sure that my own inadequacies as a shooter influence my group sizes more than the guns themselves. I seem to find both the guns to be of similar accuracy at the same ranges. But that's a hard statement to make definitively, and if true, actually speaks volumes considering the differences in BBL.
I can reach out and hit a 10" gong consistently at 300 meters with unmagnified red dots on both guns, and that's good enough for me.
Shooting at 30m-40m range with a rifle being "just deadly!"...I sure ####ing hope so for a $3000 RIFLE, I do that range with a recurve bow and my Mark 23 pistol!!!
shooting at 8" or bigger gongs at 100 yards or less...using rests and optics at these ranges too... LOL not a great way to prove a rifles quality and accuracy. my Benelli M4 can shoot slugs into a 12" circle at that range off using el-cheapo foster style slugs from Canadian Tire.
shooting at 8" or bigger gongs at 100 yards or less...using rests and optics at these ranges too... LOL not a great way to prove a rifles quality and accuracy. my Benelli M4 can shoot slugs into a 12" circle at that range off using el-cheapo foster style slugs from Canadian Tire.
Dude in G.P.
CGN Regular
- Location
- Having Fun on The Firing Line
I've found the Tavor to be a mixed bag of nuts personally.
The demo Tavor the Canada Ammo brought in back in '08? was fairly precise, shooting a 1.5 - 2moa group at 200m. Liked it so much, i bought two of the gen 1's. Well, when the gen 1's came from CanadaAmmo, they didn't have the rear tritium sight like the demo model, and they shot a 36" donut at 200m (the problem was the meprolight sight. would not hold zero on either of them.) As well had a slam fire happen. So sold them.
Then about 2yrs later when the gen 2's came out, i got a smokin' deal on one of the them so i thought i would try again. Shot nice with a 4x scope still about only 1.5-2moa. Sat in my safe for a year and i sold it too.
My latest one i found on the EE. I really like the bull pup concept for compactness so i thought maybe this is the truck gun i seek...... Anyways, have had really good luck with it. With an ACOG 4x it is nicely set up for both 75gr steel match and 55gr Norc ammo. The 75gr steel match gives around 1-1.5moa with a 100m zero. Coincidentally having the rifle zero'd at 100m with 75gr steel match, also has the 55gr zero'd at 50/200m 25/400m and 12/600m. But the 55gr Norc ammo only gives 3moa, meh, it was cheap ammo.
Was at the first Tavor Course, which i thought was really well run, good value for the money, taught me a lot about the Tavor. But i really don't use the Tavor as my truck gun. I am usually out in the mountains or backwoods, so i use a little heavier rifle, my Marlin 45/70 for bear defence.
I guess if i had to gripe about the Tavor, it would be the excessive sight over bore height and weight. With Acog and front light, MI rail, it weighs about 10.5lbs.
The demo Tavor the Canada Ammo brought in back in '08? was fairly precise, shooting a 1.5 - 2moa group at 200m. Liked it so much, i bought two of the gen 1's. Well, when the gen 1's came from CanadaAmmo, they didn't have the rear tritium sight like the demo model, and they shot a 36" donut at 200m (the problem was the meprolight sight. would not hold zero on either of them.) As well had a slam fire happen. So sold them.
Then about 2yrs later when the gen 2's came out, i got a smokin' deal on one of the them so i thought i would try again. Shot nice with a 4x scope still about only 1.5-2moa. Sat in my safe for a year and i sold it too.
My latest one i found on the EE. I really like the bull pup concept for compactness so i thought maybe this is the truck gun i seek...... Anyways, have had really good luck with it. With an ACOG 4x it is nicely set up for both 75gr steel match and 55gr Norc ammo. The 75gr steel match gives around 1-1.5moa with a 100m zero. Coincidentally having the rifle zero'd at 100m with 75gr steel match, also has the 55gr zero'd at 50/200m 25/400m and 12/600m. But the 55gr Norc ammo only gives 3moa, meh, it was cheap ammo.
Was at the first Tavor Course, which i thought was really well run, good value for the money, taught me a lot about the Tavor. But i really don't use the Tavor as my truck gun. I am usually out in the mountains or backwoods, so i use a little heavier rifle, my Marlin 45/70 for bear defence.
I guess if i had to gripe about the Tavor, it would be the excessive sight over bore height and weight. With Acog and front light, MI rail, it weighs about 10.5lbs.
Dude in G.P.
CGN Regular
- Location
- Having Fun on The Firing Line
The full length rail has BUIS in it
- Location
- Richmond, BC
I guess the claims from the youtube promo video about the Tavor taking on the role of a "sniper rifle" came across as a pitch from a used car salesman.
Dorian Gray
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I love my Tavor but I don't try to claim or make it into something that it's not. It's a good infantryman's rifle. It's not a precision rig. It's reliable, pretty heavy, kind of awkward to carry for any length of time and accurate enough to shoot a man in the chest at 300 yards. If AR's were non-restricted I doubt I would have even entertained the idea of buying one. But they aren't. So I have this. And I'm ok with that. 
