Wich metal lathe for small home gunsmith works ????
- Thread starter exseparatist
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monkeycanada
Regular
The only problem with buying a grizzly machine in the US and imporing it is that it will have no warranty in canada, so you will need a US address in order to get replacement part. Chinese machine tend to have bad reputation as far as electrics go, switch and motors often fail and most importers are happy to send you replacement parts without question.
As for the new line of Southbend Tools, I understand they will be producted in China and perhaps finished off in the US. These machine tools will be sold at a higher price point than the average Chinese import and Busy Bee may become the Canadian dealer!
As for the new line of Southbend Tools, I understand they will be producted in China and perhaps finished off in the US. These machine tools will be sold at a higher price point than the average Chinese import and Busy Bee may become the Canadian dealer!
The machine itself is just fine on this count. But like with ANY lathe, and this includes a $20K Hardinge, the machine needs to be set up and aligned accurately on a high quality stand that is solid and rigid. From there each part needs to be checked and adjusted. Again this goes for a $2.5K machine as well as a $25K machine. Those beds LOOK solid but you'd be amazed at how easily they can flex and sit cockeyed by a few thou if the stand is not able to support the machine adequitely or if they are not properley setup to avoid the bed being twisted.
From there it's up to the sharpness of the cutter. I can easily turn off a 1/4 thou skim cut if I'm using a nice freshly sharpened HSS tool. But give me a well worn edge and you're lucky to be able to size things to within a thou or more.
Now if you're talking about some of the rather cheezy 3in1 machines then yeah, some of those are so flexy that it can be hard to do quality work. But even there with a once over, setup and proper tuning of the slides to eliminate slop they can do some amazing work.
I've seen it written before that with the oriental import machine tools what you get is a kit that is loosely assembled for delivery convenience. That's not far off the mark. But if these machines are well cleaned and tuned they can do some amazing work that is the equal of any machine costing 4 to 8 times their cost.
The sad part is that it's often a beginner that buys them and doesn't know how to do this stuff. But this just points out that merely owning machines does not make one a machinist.
Hey, I've been a machinist for 28 years and i've done a fair bit of high tolerance work and I'm here to tell you that anyone who says they can take a .00025 inch in a lathe is blowing smoke out their ass and wouldn't know a thou from a metre. That's what abrasives are for!!!
Applefarmer
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I have a metal lathe I inherited and never use, send me a pm if your interested. Hope you have a strong back, it's heavy. Old lathe made under the Eatons name made in Montreal.
Funny
I've been watching Rudy Kouhoupt's videos about exactly this kind of process; alignment of centers between the tail stock and the head stock to eliminate unintended taper as the carriage travels along the ways, and to ensure concentricity as you drill. Also covers things like properly aligning the compound slide, centering when holding an irregular piece in a 4 jaw chuck, etc.
First thing I learned? There are more ways to screw up than there are to get it right. Measure twice. Cut once.
Great video series so far. Not what you'd call an exciting guy, but very thorough and deliberate.
I've been watching Rudy Kouhoupt's videos about exactly this kind of process; alignment of centers between the tail stock and the head stock to eliminate unintended taper as the carriage travels along the ways, and to ensure concentricity as you drill. Also covers things like properly aligning the compound slide, centering when holding an irregular piece in a 4 jaw chuck, etc.
First thing I learned? There are more ways to screw up than there are to get it right. Measure twice. Cut once.
Great video series so far. Not what you'd call an exciting guy, but very thorough and deliberate.
If you put a barrel through the spindle and hold it in a 4 jaw independent chuck, indicate it to zero runout, the other end that is sticking out the back of the spindle can run out a bunch if the inner surface of your chuck jaws are not ground perfectly true. So even though you indicated it perfectly the threads can be crooked.
If you hold it between centers or between a center and steady rest, you can indicate it front and rear.
I'm sorry you feel that way because I have done it on more than one occasion.
With a freshly ground and stoned HSS cutter it's not hard. I used the compound set to a 14 degree angle so one thou on the compound was .00025 on the cut. When measured the diameter was down by a 1/2 thou. When I've done such a thing it's typically been to produce a precision fit for some tooling or for sizing something for a press fit.
Mind you it doesn't work worth a pinch with anything less than a freshly sharpened cutter on a machine that has good headstock bearings.
Try it, it works.
If a barrel is to be set up through the spindle, one end will be in the four jaw chuck, the outboard end will be supported by a spider. Using dowel pins, the bore can be indicated in at both ends. Of course, the bore through the barrel may not be straight......
Grizzly's owner and Busy Bee's owner are cousins, I've been told. This second hand, a friend of mine was told this by one of the sales staff at Grizzly, when he was shopping for a machine.
If you are expecting a warranty on par with a new car, forget it. Most of the parts for this boat load of Busy Bee lathes, will not match the parts on the next load. Not really as big a deal as it sounds, because if you have the use of the machine tools, you will soon know what you can make when you need to.
The Craftex stuff is pretty nasty, overall. As you go up in size, less so, but still pretty rough. About on par with a decent brand name machine that has been in a High School shop for 20 years or so...
Quebec? West? South? Boondocks?
Talk to Joe Bergamo at Plaza Machine tools in Vermont. There are a couple other machine tool dealers in the area, and if you dig around, you can hook up with the hobby metalwork jungle drums, and maybe hook up that way. Check out the Montreal Live Steamers site for some contacts.
I'd suggest a South Bend Heavy 10, as about the best all round machine you could expect to get, that could be easily moved into a basement shop. Decent ones are still around.
IIRC 1 3/8 inches bore is the smallest size that will fit a 5C collet, the most common, cheapest to buy, work holding collet system around. Worth keeping that dimension in mind, whatever you decide to buy.
Know about lathes.co.uk ? Good reference site to see what you are looking at as far as putting a visual on a name, if you see a name advertised.
Plan on spending about $400-$600 on tooling for the lathe, if it does not come with it. Chucks in good shape, collets, maybe a steady rest, tool post and holders, and a few dozen dollars worth of cutters... and it begins.
Cheers
Trev
If you are expecting a warranty on par with a new car, forget it. Most of the parts for this boat load of Busy Bee lathes, will not match the parts on the next load. Not really as big a deal as it sounds, because if you have the use of the machine tools, you will soon know what you can make when you need to.
The Craftex stuff is pretty nasty, overall. As you go up in size, less so, but still pretty rough. About on par with a decent brand name machine that has been in a High School shop for 20 years or so...
Quebec? West? South? Boondocks?
Talk to Joe Bergamo at Plaza Machine tools in Vermont. There are a couple other machine tool dealers in the area, and if you dig around, you can hook up with the hobby metalwork jungle drums, and maybe hook up that way. Check out the Montreal Live Steamers site for some contacts.
I'd suggest a South Bend Heavy 10, as about the best all round machine you could expect to get, that could be easily moved into a basement shop. Decent ones are still around.
IIRC 1 3/8 inches bore is the smallest size that will fit a 5C collet, the most common, cheapest to buy, work holding collet system around. Worth keeping that dimension in mind, whatever you decide to buy.
Know about lathes.co.uk ? Good reference site to see what you are looking at as far as putting a visual on a name, if you see a name advertised.
Plan on spending about $400-$600 on tooling for the lathe, if it does not come with it. Chucks in good shape, collets, maybe a steady rest, tool post and holders, and a few dozen dollars worth of cutters... and it begins.
Cheers
Trev
It kinda works. Yes, your bearing condition is pretty important. So is your setup rigidity. So is the DOC you took on the previous pass. So is your ability to measure well. I've heard a few guys talk about splittin' tenths on a lathe all day long. I don't think most people realize how difficult it is to even measure a tenth with a micrometer outside of an environmentally controlled clean room.
So yeah, it kinda works, and if all you've got is a lathe you've gotta make do, but I would also much prefer a good cylindrical grinder if I had to make those kind of tolerances (especially on a one-off with a lot of hours already in it made of something expensive). As far as that goes, even if all I had was a lathe I'd be more likely to polish off the last half thou with emery than try to turn it. It's usually just not worth it for everything that can go wrong.
I tend to polish, more like cut off the crowns of the turning roughness, for the last 1/2 thou with a slip stone these days. The flat surface of the stone cuts a bit more evenly. I must admit that I haven't resorted so much to the 1/4 thou shaving since I picked up on this trick.
When it's mostly for a no slop sliding fit I tend to use silicon carbide paper backed with a strip of flat metal just so the cut is even along the contact line.
We machinists certainly do pick up our own tricks and do what works for our needs.
A tool post grinder is on my list of projects for "a rainy day". But it's a LONG list and even with the weather out this way it's going to be a while.
When it's mostly for a no slop sliding fit I tend to use silicon carbide paper backed with a strip of flat metal just so the cut is even along the contact line.
We machinists certainly do pick up our own tricks and do what works for our needs.
A tool post grinder is on my list of projects for "a rainy day". But it's a LONG list and even with the weather out this way it's going to be a while.
If you set the compound at 14.5 degrees and take a .001 inch cut the tool removes .00097 inches. I don't know what kind of trigonometry you're using but I suggest you invest in a set of digital mics that read in tenths and get some experience under your belt. The uninformed may buy it but anyone that knows s*it from putty will not.
I think Mike needs a hug.....
A little reading between the lines would help. On my lathe there's a zero index mark for both the cross axis and parallel axis. When I set a small angle that is more parallel to the headstock axis I use the "other" mark. Now the 14 degrees gives the right ratio.
A little reading between the lines would help. On my lathe there's a zero index mark for both the cross axis and parallel axis. When I set a small angle that is more parallel to the headstock axis I use the "other" mark. Now the 14 degrees gives the right ratio.
It wasn't my intention to sound snotty but apparently I do, sorry about that.
It's hard to tell someone's tone when reading text.
Really don't agree on the finish cuts but so what, everybody's got their own ideas.
This thread isn't about that anyway.
I would recommend ex-seperatist stay away from the Chinese junk and look for a used machine in decent shape, American, English, Japanese, German or Swiss. The extra money you may spend will pay off in the end.
Get a four jaw also and a roller bearing steady rest for barrel work as has been mentioned. Something with around 40 inches between centers is versatile.
It's hard to tell someone's tone when reading text.
Really don't agree on the finish cuts but so what, everybody's got their own ideas.
This thread isn't about that anyway.
I would recommend ex-seperatist stay away from the Chinese junk and look for a used machine in decent shape, American, English, Japanese, German or Swiss. The extra money you may spend will pay off in the end.
Get a four jaw also and a roller bearing steady rest for barrel work as has been mentioned. Something with around 40 inches between centers is versatile.
In a perfect world, get a 14x40 size lathe for general use, have a decent small lathe for stuff that wants a higher RPM, like polishing screw heads and the like.
As an example, I've seen several Myford ML7 lathes on the Vancouver Craigslist lately. Cheap, too, even if they don't have much for tooling. Tooling can be got as required.
There's a nice Dean Smith and Grace on the Montreal Craigslist right now. Not a high speed machine, but one that will still be accurate 30 years from now.
Cheers
Trev
As an example, I've seen several Myford ML7 lathes on the Vancouver Craigslist lately. Cheap, too, even if they don't have much for tooling. Tooling can be got as required.
There's a nice Dean Smith and Grace on the Montreal Craigslist right now. Not a high speed machine, but one that will still be accurate 30 years from now.
Cheers
Trev
A warning on the Myford. I got a used one originally and from all the books on them I thought it would be the PERFECT machine for a hobbyist wanting to do small to medium projects. But when you read more closely you'll find that much of the research out there is geared to getting around a lot of the machine's lack of rigidity and mass. In the end it's a lightweight machine, even for its size, with a small diameter headstock shaft that flexes during anything resembling a heavy cut or even a medium cut.. .or a light cut on steel of a larger diameter. Well, let's just say it sang like an opera soprano much of the time. For example a highly desireable mod for the Myford is a rear tailstock that accepts an upside down parting tool. This is used solely due to the chatter that it generates when cutting with a tool post mounted parting tool.
I know that legions of home machinists have produced much fantastic work from them. But from my experience it is more a testament to their continuing in the face of adversity than because the machine is a willing and able partner in the shop. When it comes to machine tools there's no substitute for massive castings of iron. The more massive the better. Buy as heavy and big as you can possibly afford and find room for and you'll never regret the extra cost in the end.
I know that legions of home machinists have produced much fantastic work from them. But from my experience it is more a testament to their continuing in the face of adversity than because the machine is a willing and able partner in the shop. When it comes to machine tools there's no substitute for massive castings of iron. The more massive the better. Buy as heavy and big as you can possibly afford and find room for and you'll never regret the extra cost in the end.
